US Pilots Labor Discussion

[AWA320]

I hate to speak for everyone in the east,but the pilots in the east that I've talked to would rather see this place go T.U.

rather than deal with the nic. The east will go to AA of someone else and the west will go to....who cares. USAPA First

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Dream on and when you wake up you will realize you are mid fifty something and UNEMPLOYED taking about "back when I was a pilot at the now DEFUNCT usair". AA is at the end game of their contract talks and by spring they will have a contract, where's yours??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

AWA320

 

[AWA320]

More big talk and false bravado.

If USAirways is ultimately broken up in bankruptcy, it will be the assets that go with the transaction, not the pilots.

And if the East did go to AA you would go from an A330 F/O to the right seat of a Super 80 or 737, in worse shape than you would have been if you had accepted the Nicolau Award 3 years ago.

Perhaps some of the East pilots would find employment in Asia or the Middle East but at what price to your families?

You certainly don't speak for everyone on the East, just the pathological USAPA shills. Last time I checked, putting USAPA first hasn't increased my W-2 earnings in the past 3 years and they certainly won't be issuing USAPA paychecks to the pilots if USAirways ceases operations.

Will MC get to keep the Taurus when USAPA close it's doors?

Preach on cause he dont get it? Usapa sold him on east goes here and west goes there. Never happen in the past and wont int the future. Those companies will buy gates, slots and routes maybe an a/c or two but pilots??? HELL NO!!! Too many issues.

AWA320

 

[nic4us]

Once again, confusing apples and oranges. An arb between the company and union - everyone knows forming a new union won't help. An arb between two union groups trying to figure out what to present to the company? Different animal altogether.
I agree that all future mergers will have McCaskill-Bond to help them through the process.

I understand the difference, that is why I say organized labor has nothing to fear from a finding upholding Addington. That would not give the green light to any union member to sue over a negotiating proposal. Only proposals that were already determined through a binding arbitration process, that a majority wishes to renege on.

However, McCaskill-Bond would be moot if usapa wins this case. It would no longer guarantee the rights under Allegheny-Mohawk 3 and 13, it will be, don't like the results, well it is whatever the majority wants, and the blueprint for arbitration reneging is hold a new representation election, and form a scumbag union.

 

[AWA320]

What? It's about to tank..? Why?

I thought you have been telling the East pilots about hundreds of millions of dollars that we have cost all the pilots on both sides because we didn't accepted the Nic and allow the company to shower us with untold new contract gains approaching the legends of Valhalla.

Your propensity for self-loathing seems to be irrationally projected on a group that you maintain has saved the company untold millions while at the same time you think it is about to cause the company to tank.

How much nog did you mix in with your egg?

Do you see whats happening in the industry?? Do I need to lead you by the nose or can you see that every other carrier is setting up for the future while you sit there making that forth rate hack seaham rich. DOH is never going to happen period and that much you should have figured out by now. UAL/CAL movin on, SWA, Airtran and maybe now Sun country too movin on, Dal/NWA and now maybe Virgin movin on USWORTHLESS still the worst of the worst lowest paid no contract on a decade and you sit there high and mighty talking about egg nog? I hope for your sake that mortage is almost paid off and you dont have a wife and children depending on you because you have made some really dumb decisions!!

AWA320

 

[nic4us]

Did I ask you that question? No I did not. You jump on here and take my quote out of context. Gutless.

I am sure 924PS can hold his own, and was not trying to answere for him.

I was pointing out that each case turns on its own merit, and regarless of how PSA or PI or Empire were merged, I and my AWA co-workers were not added to your list, but combined with it. If I began with the premise that you were added to our list,(in reality closer to the truth) it would look like you got a better deal than you should have.

 

[Phoenix]

Do you see whats happening in the industry?? Do I need to lead you by the nose or can you see that every other carrier is setting up for the future while you sit there making that forth rate hack seaham rich. DOH is never going to happen period and that much you should have figured out by now. UAL/CAL movin on, SWA, Airtran and maybe now Sun country too movin on, Dal/NWA and now maybe Virgin movin on USWORTHLESS still the worst of the worst lowest paid no contract on a decade and you sit there high and mighty talking about egg nog? I hope for your sake that mortage is almost paid off and you dont have a wife and children depending on you because you have made some really dumb decisions!!

AWA320

Sleep it off bro. It will be OK.. just sleep it off.

 

[AWA320]

Sleep it off bro. It will be OK.. just sleep it off.

There is that fear creaping in again I see. No realization of the world around you outside of what usapa tells you to think. Usapa supporters = mushrooms in the dark and eating crap.

AWA320

 

[prechilill]

From the IAM- TWU arbitration.
Kasher gets it:

"The “fair and equitable” standard is, by necessity, a subjective one. As past seniority integration awards in the airline industry have demonstrated, there are a variety of methods that may be used to achieve a “fair and equitable” result; and, clearly, what is “fair and equitable” in the eyes of one employee will not, necessarily, be “fair and equitable” to another."


"In a perfect world, that is if two merging airlines were nearly identical in terms of financial condition, fleet sizes, aircraft types, route structures, ASMs and other indicia and characteristics of the carriers’ operations, then date of entry might be considered the most fair and equitable methodology for integrating the seniority lists. Date of entry might also be considered a fair and equitable methodology where the equities were arguably comparable, or where there was general agreement by the competing groups of employees that their service with their respective carriers was of equal value."


Fact: AWA was making money, USAir was about to liquidate
Fact: AWA was growing, USAir was shrinking
Fact: AWA had no pilots on furlough, USAir had 17 year pilots on furlough
Fact: AWA had increasing ASM's, USAir was reducing ASM's

Putting the above into the equation it is not difficult to see why Nicolau didn't use Date of Hire- Kasher wouldn't have either!

 

[LSS]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA Dream on and when you wake up you will realize you are mid fifty something and UNEMPLOYED taking about "back when I was a pilot at the now DEFUNCT usair". AA is at the end game of their contract talks and by spring they will have a contract, where's yours??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

AWA320

and you "homie" will maybe get hired by another carrier... and guess where you'll be sitting on their list... #1 to be furloughed!... Me... I'll just retire!

 

[Bear96]

Once again, confusing apples and oranges. An arb between the company and union - everyone knows forming a new union won't help. An arb between two union groups trying to figure out what to present to the company? Different animal altogether.

I have asked this before and got no response (maybe not from you - can't remember who I asked) so I'll try again:

Can you cite something to support that the latter situation is materially different from the former in ways that are relevant to the current dispute? For example, a case holding that an arbitration decision in the former situation is somehow "more enforceable," or that one party is free to disregard the arbitrator's decision in the latter scenario if it does not like the decision?

 

[Black Swan]

More big talk and false bravado.

If USAirways is ultimately broken up in bankruptcy, it will be the assets that go with the transaction, not the pilots.

And if the East did go to AA you would go from an A330 F/O to the right seat of a Super 80 or 737, in worse shape than you would have been if you had accepted the Nicolau Award 3 years ago.

Perhaps some of the East pilots would find employment in Asia or the Middle East but at what price to your families?

You certainly don't speak for everyone on the East, just the pathological USAPA shills. Last time I checked, putting USAPA first hasn't increased my W-2 earnings in the past 3 years and they certainly won't be issuing USAPA paychecks to the pilots if USAirways ceases operations.

Will MC get to keep the Taurus when USAPA close it's doors?

Do you really think the Pennsylvania and North Carolina politicians and also the President would let this go down in this economic environment? Not a chance.

 

[Black Swan]

Once again, confusing apples and oranges. An arb between the company and union - everyone knows forming a new union won't help. An arb between two union groups trying to figure out what to present to the company? Different animal altogether.
I agree that all future mergers will have McCaskill-Bond to help them through the process.

Exactly. This matter continues to confound the West pilots. Clarification shortly will clear the fog of war.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

I have asked this before and got no response (maybe not from you - can't remember who I asked) so I'll try again:

Can you cite something to support that the latter situation is materially different from the former in ways that are relevant to the current dispute? For example, a case holding that an arbitration decision in the former situation is somehow "more enforceable," or that one party is free to disregard the arbitrator's decision in the latter scenario if it does not like the decision?

I'd like to add an additional request to this if I may. Can some post a link to ALPAs merger policy at the time in its entirety?

I have to believe that at some point( if it hasn't happened already ) the intent of the policy itself has to be considered, and I have a hard time believing that the policy ends with arbitration intending only to reach a "bargaining position", rather than settling in finality a dispute between parties.

 

[Black Swan]

I'd like to add an additional request to this if I may. Can some post a link to ALPAs merger policy at the time in its entirety?

I have to believe that at some point( if it hasn't happened already ) the intent of the policy itself has to be considered, and I have a hard time believing that the policy ends with arbitration intending only to reach a "bargaining position", rather than settling in finality a dispute between parties.

The best written discussion on this matter is in the Baptiste and Wilder RLA blog. Search the column on the right, for some really interesting discussions on a lot of other airlines, and also this one. The main point of Bill Wilder being this is an INTERNAL UNION DISPUTE, not a dispute between the company and its' pilots. The part about ALPA being replaced with a new bargaining agent, in a certified election, totally legal - is the crux of the matter. And to use the former (ALPA) in this seniority dispute, is to perpetuate the former. USAPA is NOT beholden to the former position. Not commenting about the political or opinions of either side- just the fact that what went down was legal, and this is why we are where we are today.

 

[Bear96]

I'd like to add an additional request to this if I may. Can some post a link to ALPAs merger policy at the time in its entirety?

I have to believe that at some point( if it hasn't happened already ) the intent of the policy itself has to be considered, and I have a hard time believing that the policy ends with arbitration intending only to reach a "bargaining position", rather than settling in finality a dispute between parties.

Yes, I am sure there is an "out" somehwere in there that says if either party does not like the outcome, it is free to disregard it, and that the process is not really intended to be binding after all.