US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

One last thing since no westie bit on it. Here is the west's "basically" relative positions proposal:

"America West's initial proposal differed dramatically from that of
US Airways. As previously indicated, its position, when first presented
in detail, was a series of ratios accompanied with a two year condition
and restriction reserving to US Airways pilots all Captain positions on
the 9 A330 aircraft flying international routes as of May 19, 2005. The
firat proposed ratio was not Captain to Captain. Instead, America West
added to its 855 Captains an additional 114 First Officers, who,
America West claimed, expected captaincies based on the 19 A320s on
firm order as of May 2005. That combined figure (969) was to be
4 The financial condition arguments and the role those conditions
properly play are discussed below.
14
integrated on a straight ratio basis with 1121 US Airways Captains, a
number derived from staffing assumptions based on what 'were 221 US
Airways aircraft as of February 2006. This ratio would be followed by an
integration of the remaining America West First Officers (925) with
1051 US Airways First Officers, also on a straight ratio basis. After the
reinsertion of those on extended medical leaves and those in nonflying
positions, this would put 2431 US Airways pilots on the bottom of
the list, 959 of whom were active pilots as of May 19, 2005 with the
remaining 1472 furloughees."

959 active pilots as of 5/19/2005 stapled. How is that "what they brought to the merger"?

Aquagreen, can I look forward to a correction and a letter sent to those media outlets that picked this up?

 

[luvn737s]

How many years has it been clear where we are headed? And you still don't have the coalitions built?

Well gee, Cleary's stepping on his crank as fast as he can. I can hardly ask him to do more

When you get them put together, I will look and consider it.

That's very big of you, and you would be welcome. Not irreplaceably necessary, but welcome.

 

[end_of_alpa]

I think our mistake was that we treated the arbitration as if we were still negotiating with the West when in truth we were negotiating with Nicolau.

He was not going to split the baby, he was going to do what he thought was fair and he had a track record of what that was.

He was saying to both sides, IMO, give me something I can work with we told him no, do it yourself.

It's funny you should mention the Solomon phrase...by not attempting to split the baby he did some serious damage to labor unions and has given all of them pause when using a policy that ALPA uses.

As far as what he was saying, and I know you were here for it, the overwhelming amount of East pilots were polled by the MEC and asked to give ALPA merger policy a chance. They did, and they also told them they would only vote for DOH with conditions and restrictions.

I know, I flew with Marshall Rogers both before and after the "award" and he was told the negotiating committee would be given a chance to come up with a solution but it's up to the rank and file to decide. They decided. Its DOH with conditions and restrictions. Now had nicolau came up with another solution more like what would be palpable to a larger group of Eadt pilots, we might not be where we are.

However, c'est la vie.

 

[end_of_alpa]

One last thing since no westie bit on it. Here is the west's "basically" relative positions proposal:

"America West's initial proposal differed dramatically from that of
US Airways. As previously indicated, its position, when first presented
in detail, was a series of ratios accompanied with a two year condition
and restriction reserving to US Airways pilots all Captain positions on
the 9 A330 aircraft flying international routes as of May 19, 2005. The
firat proposed ratio was not Captain to Captain. Instead, America West
added to its 855 Captains an additional 114 First Officers, who,
America West claimed, expected captaincies based on the 19 A320s on
firm order as of May 2005. That combined figure (969) was to be
4 The financial condition arguments and the role those conditions
properly play are discussed below.
14
integrated on a straight ratio basis with 1121 US Airways Captains, a
number derived from staffing assumptions based on what 'were 221 US
Airways aircraft as of February 2006. This ratio would be followed by an
integration of the remaining America West First Officers (925) with
1051 US Airways First Officers, also on a straight ratio basis. After the
reinsertion of those on extended medical leaves and those in nonflying
positions, this would put 2431 US Airways pilots on the bottom of
the list, 959 of whom were active pilots as of May 19, 2005 with the
remaining 1472 furloughees."

959 active pilots as of 5/19/2005 stapled. How is that "what they brought to the merger"?

Aquagreen, can I look forward to a correction and a letter sent to those media outlets that picked this up?

Excellent point, they were all too interested in stapling us! The west MEC was never interested in equity and fairness, stapling was their middle name.

 

[No Land Green]

One last thing since no westie bit on it. Here is the west's "basically" relative positions proposal:

"America West's initial proposal differed dramatically from that of
US Airways. As previously indicated, its position, when first presented
in detail, was a series of ratios accompanied with a two year condition
and restriction reserving to US Airways pilots all Captain positions on
the 9 A330 aircraft flying international routes as of May 19, 2005. The
firat proposed ratio was not Captain to Captain. Instead, America West
added to its 855 Captains an additional 114 First Officers, who,
America West claimed, expected captaincies based on the 19 A320s on
firm order as of May 2005. That combined figure (969) was to be
4 The financial condition arguments and the role those conditions
properly play are discussed below.
14
integrated on a straight ratio basis with 1121 US Airways Captains, a
number derived from staffing assumptions based on what 'were 221 US
Airways aircraft as of February 2006. This ratio would be followed by an
integration of the remaining America West First Officers (925) with
1051 US Airways First Officers, also on a straight ratio basis. After the
reinsertion of those on extended medical leaves and those in nonflying
positions, this would put 2431 US Airways pilots on the bottom of
the list, 959 of whom were active pilots as of May 19, 2005 with the
remaining 1472 furloughees."

959 active pilots as of 5/19/2005 stapled. How is that "what they brought to the merger"?

Aquagreen, can I look forward to a correction and a letter sent to those media outlets that picked this up?

Good Post Brat. Many East Pilots have no idea of the above. I've been spreading this gem for quite some time now.

 

[cactusboy53]

Jake,

What do you think about my post above to Jim about the Nic? I'd like your opinion.

I know you asked Jake, here is my response: While I am generally pleased that you took the time to read the award, the fact is that ALL of the award is the conclusion of a process that both pilot groups agreed upon. Your continued flag waving that the list is not fair does not change the fact that it remains final and binding. NO ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside by the courts (this according to Cleary & Mowrey - US AIRWAVES June/July 2000).

Our position is our legal experts sustaining our argument for our proposal, much as your expert fought for the instructed position of DATE OF HIRE.

Here is what I think: this is yet another delay tactic that will ultimately end in failure, loss of income, loss of benefits, loss of time off and the continued loss of the respect that the pilots that support USAPA feel that they are entitled to.

 

[No Land Green]

Here is what I think: this is yet another delay tactic that will ultimately end in failure, loss of income, loss of benefits, loss of time off and the continued loss of the respect that the pilots that support USAPA feel that they are entitled to.

More and more people at work that I talk to have a strong desire to have senior management replaced. They see them for what they are. Fragmentation is a growing desire now on the East. "I'm keeping my eye on the prize" now, fragmentation. I hear that we are hiring on the East......As EOA says, "Good Luck"

 

[prechilill]

One last thing since no westie bit on it. Here is the west's "basically" relative positions proposal:

"America West's initial proposal differed dramatically from that of
US Airways. As previously indicated, its position, when first presented
in detail, was a series of ratios accompanied with a two year condition
and restriction reserving to US Airways pilots all Captain positions on
the 9 A330 aircraft flying international routes as of May 19, 2005. The
firat proposed ratio was not Captain to Captain. Instead, America West
added to its 855 Captains an additional 114 First Officers, who,
America West claimed, expected captaincies based on the 19 A320s on
firm order as of May 2005. That combined figure (969) was to be
4 The financial condition arguments and the role those conditions
properly play are discussed below.
14
integrated on a straight ratio basis with 1121 US Airways Captains, a
number derived from staffing assumptions based on what 'were 221 US
Airways aircraft as of February 2006. This ratio would be followed by an
integration of the remaining America West First Officers (925) with
1051 US Airways First Officers, also on a straight ratio basis. After the
reinsertion of those on extended medical leaves and those in nonflying
positions, this would put 2431 US Airways pilots on the bottom of
the list, 959 of whom were active pilots as of May 19, 2005 with the
remaining 1472 furloughees."

959 active pilots as of 5/19/2005 stapled. How is that "what they brought to the merger"?

Aquagreen, can I look forward to a correction and a letter sent to those media outlets that picked this up?

And your point is???

 

[end_of_alpa]

I know you asked Jake, here is my response: While I am generally pleased that you took the time to read the award, the fact is that ALL of the award is the conclusion of a process that both pilot groups agreed upon. Your continued flag waving that the list is not fair does not change the fact that it remains final and binding. NO ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside by the courts (this according to Cleary & Mowrey - US AIRWAVES June/July 2000).

Our position is our legal experts sustaining our argument for our proposal, much as your expert fought for the instructed position of DATE OF HIRE.

Here is what I think: this is yet another delay tactic that will ultimately end in failure, loss of income, loss of benefits, loss of time off and the continued loss of the respect that the pilots that support USAPA feel that they are entitled to.

ALPA promised you and I emphasize promised, a merger policy that only becomes effective with a vote. You all can say final and binding, you can quote Cleary and Mowery from that antiquated piece which, actually, was wrong, and you can say both "pilot groups" agreed to it all you want, but we are all standing NOW on the principle that says, I WON'T BE STRIPPED OF MY VOTE, regardless of whether it's Nicolau or DOH. You cannot sue for the vote, the rank and file are standing on THAT PRINCIPLE.

USAPA is all about respect....the respect of the VOTE, whether you like it or not.

Good luck.

 

[end_of_alpa]

More and more people at work that I talk to have a strong desire to have senior management replaced. They see them for what they are. Fragmentation is a growing desire now on the East. "I'm keeping my eye on the prize" now, fragmentation. I hear that we are hiring on the East......As EOA says, "Good Luck"

The east also see major safety issues and want them to be resolved. Unfortunately when you have a small number of pilots who want people to believe there is some kind of job action, which there isn't, it not only makes a bad name for pilots, but it also has the effect of labeling pilots, east and west as well as at other carriers, inept morons that are trying to pad their nests.

 

[fodase]

ALPA promised you and I emphasize promised, a merger policy that only becomes effective with a vote. You all can say final and binding, you can quote Cleary and Mowery from that antiquated piece which, actually, was wrong, and you can say both "pilot groups" agreed to it all you want, but we are all standing NOW on the principle that says, I WON'T BE STRIPPED OF MY VOTE, regardless of whether it's Nicolau or DOH. You cannot sue for the vote, the rank and file are standing on THAT PRINCIPLE.

USAPA is all about respect....the respect of the VOTE, whether you like it or not.

Good luck.

No one is trying to take your contract vote away, and no one will. However, you won't get to vote on the seniority list, you won't be able to choose between Nic. or Doh, it will never happen.

 

[end_of_alpa]

This quote is taken from ALPA vs. O'Neill (citations omitted):

The final product of the bargaining process may constitute evidence of a breach of the fair representation duty only if, in light of the factual and legal landscape, it can be fairly characterized as so far outside of a "wide range of reasonableness," that it is wholly "irrational" or "arbitrary."

The Court of Appeals' refinement of the arbitrariness component authorizes more judicial review of the substance of negotiated agreements than is consistent with national labor policy. Congress did not intend judicial review of a union's performance to permit the court to substitute its own view of the proper bargain for that reached by the union.

Rather, Congress envisioned the relationship between the courts and labor unions as similar to that between the courts and the legislature.

Any substantive examination of a union's performance, therefore, must be highly deferential, recognizing the wide latitude that negotiators need for the effective performance of their bargaining responsibilities.

The population is speaking, we have a voice and we have a vote.

In short, USAPA prevails and Posinelli-Shugart loses another one. Strike three.


Good luck.

 

[cleardirect]

The east also see major safety issues and want them to be resolved. Unfortunately when you have a small number of pilots who want people to believe there is some kind of job action, which there isn't, it not only makes a bad name for pilots, but it also has the effect of labeling pilots, east and west as well as at other carriers, inept morons that are trying to pad their nests.

So what has changed in the last 2-3 months? Has there been a huge FOM change lately? For the last 6 years was have been flying airplanes without to many problems. usapa has been the CBA for the last 3 years.

But all of a sudden now we have safety issues. At the same time usapa is trying without success to get a contract. You can lie to yourself and other about your safety campaign but everyone knows it is nothing more that a job action.

Nothing has changed except the east tactics.

 

[Pi brat]

And your point is???

If you are going to join in could you at least keep up? I get tired of explaining everything to you.

 

[prechilill]

If you are going to join in could you at least keep up? I get tired of explaining everything to you.

So you can't paraphrase in one sentence what your point is... I see.