US Pilots Labor Discussion

[mrbreeze]

And that is the problem for the East. Nic handed out the jobs each side brought to the merger in order of each individual's seniority on their respective list - their pre-merger position. No West pilots were flying 330's or 767's so no West pilots got those slots. No West pilots were furloughed so they didn't get any of those slots either. Pre-merger every West line pilot was able to hold X job based strictly on his/her seniority and that's the slot Nic put them in (as he did the East). So the basis that the West is "entitled" to, in your words, is the Nic.

Jim

I knew that if I posted an honest discription of the ALPA fuckin we took, some #### would have something to say against my position.

You diehard ALPA guys need to take up golf or something.....maybe spank your monkeys more often.

 

[traderjake]

For a change, how about you quit asking for daddy dougies help in punishing his errant children and start to becoming a part of the solution instead of part of the problem.

The West is not going to help you steal their jobs.

You can stop asking them.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I am sincerely glad you guys are upgrading over there. I hope the rest of your furloughed pilots get recalled soon too. I hope it continues and I wish the economic environment would turn so we could grow the hub and base, not just transfer the flying around. It would make a lot of our issues moot.

I'll drink to that. I'm also happy for some of the guys hired in 87 getting left seats back over there, it's been a long damn time. I might take some heat from some in the west for that statement I suppose. But to me it's more of a human statement than a political one.

 

[mrbreeze]

I'll drink to that. I'm also happy for some of the guys hired in 87 getting left seats back over there, it's been a long damn time. I might take some heat from some in the west for that statement I suppose. But to me it's more of a human statement than a political one.

cheers! 😀

 

[end_of_alpa]

The West is not going to help you steal their jobs.

You can stop asking them.

It's really funny how you can say were "stealing" their jobs. There is no theft....but you believe what you want. The captain bid I got is theft, even though cactus53 can't bid it because we still haven't VOTED! I have no right to vote what I want whether it's ALPA or not.

You have a weird sense of entitlement and don't believe in democracy.

 

[luvn737s]

I knew that if I posted an honest discription of the ALPA fuckin we took, some #### would have something to say against my position.

You diehard ALPA guys need to take up golf or something.....maybe spank your monkeys more often.

The cyber-pantload shows his bipolar nature.

Can you just choose AC or DC and stop switch hitting? You never know, you might say something worth listening to.

But whining about how you chose your job over your pension and now regret it (or forget) isn't it.

 

[Pi brat]

Fine. However the company has expressed zero interest in doing so. We've had our section 6 rights denied to us, (by you) for years. For the life of me, I don't understand how that it's legal to simply ignore the West's right to amend our contract. The singular reason we've been denied this fundamental right is the East's refusal to accept reality. This mess has cost all of us unknowable amounts of money and QOL improvements. The USAPA vote sealed everybodies fate to this quagmire. Look around! Have you seen how many contracts have been signed over the last 4 years? Our pay is embarrassing. Your pay is flatly criminal,(although you chose this). Nothing Seham promised you is working. Not even close. If there was a way to hit the "reset" button on all of this I think most of us would gladly do so and start again from scratch. That can't happen now. No West, No independent reps anymore, no choice but to let this grind away for years to come in court. Parker isn't smart enough to have engineered this from the beginning but he sure as hell is smart enough to exploit it for all it's worth. I'm more than tired of accommodating Parker's windfall. Everybody but USAPA and Seham have found a post-arbitration DOH cram down to the sole and abject detriment to the West to be well outside the "wide range of reasonableness" they hang their hat on. The Jury saw through all of that BS is no time.

I'm in the minority probably but I really do sympathize with how badly the East careers have turned out. The loss of the Pension should have resulted in somebody spending the rest of their lives in prison. But that isn't the way it works in this country. Again, how that is Legal will always be beyond my understanding. I, (the west) am NOT your enemy. This Industry is moving on leaving ALL of us in the dust. That is frustrating isn't it? Maddeningly so. We're sitting here with a self imposed straight jacket on all the while First Officers at other airlines are increasingly getting paid MORE than your Captains. Don't even think about the work rules other major's enjoy either....that'd keep you up at night. Look, I'd love to be able to wave a magic wand and fix this to everybodie's collective satisfaction but that isn't possible. If USAPA hadn't flat out declared War on the West by wasting no effort to use brute force to pummel us at every single opportunity maybe something could be worked out. Getting Rid of ALPA could have been a fantastic opportunity to start anew. I would have welcomed it in nearly any OTHER circumstance. USAPA has morphed into an absolutely out of control, unsustainable Monster. I used to think that ALPA had no interest in truly serving the pilots....especially us because of our size. But compared to USAPA...who has absolutely, positively NO desire to do anything for me but Steal from me by force, and to deny my section 6 rights flat out, ALPA was a shining gem of unionism.

I cannot imagine anybody voting for USAPA 3.5 years ago had THIS in mind. Is this really the Union you thought you were going to get? The one you were promised? All I see is an organization run by a kernal of hard core maniacs. Watching this "union" evolve over the years has been like witnessing the birth of Organized Crime. They extort "protection" money from everybody and tell you they're going to do one thing but then turn around and DO something else. With no transparency, no input from the constituency, and no fiscal responsibility. They make outlandish claims that ALPA is funding AOL to the tune of 700k and nobody out East calls them on it. This "safety" campaign is patently ridiculous. What is the point?!!! Do the "safety first" crowd actually believe their going to force the company into accepting an illegal seniority list by FORCE?!! That's absurd. Personally, I think Parker is simply sitting on his hands waiting for USAPA to provide enough rope to hang themselves. Being your illegal work action is the WORST kept secret in the history of Negotiations, I'd say the company had plenty of evidence already. I could go on and on...and judging by how many pages on on this subject, I'm guessing I'm not alone.

The 4th of July is really a celebration of fighting Tyranny and demanding freedom from persecution. The West is going to aggressively, and vehemently fight USAPA for as long as is necessary for the very same reason for today's Holiday. I really do wish all Eastie's the best however, again I'm not your enemy...unless you insist upon it. Which apparently enough of you do. When sane rational people are allowed to run a REAL union, perhaps this nightmare will end. Happy 4th!

I'm guessing that the union has not bothered to to separate section 6 because of the transition agreement that supposedly has us headed to a joint contract. The company has repeatedly said they have no interest. IMHO the TA was a flawed document the the company, with help from both sides, has used to get way more from us than they should of. A west friend of mine told me that your MEC was okay with the "veto" part of it because they thought you might come up on the short end of the stick and you guys would need to use it.

You say the singular reason that we are in this mess is because the east refused to honor it's agreement. In very simple terms, you are correct, just like we are celebrating our county's independence today because our forefathers didn't honor their agreement with King George! The real MAIN reason we are here is because King George Nicolau, using a bad merger policy, came up with a flawed seniority list that the east group decided they could not let stand, IMHO of course.

The west guys always say they don't have representation, or separate representation. The reality is that AOL has become the quasi representatives of the west, not by law or force, but by the choosing of west pilots. The Addington suit started this current legal tack. There were other choices, the west pilots decided that AOL and Addington were their best choices. That's fine, your right in the wonderful lawyer driven country we've become, but just like the east lives with the choice to vote in USAPA, you live with the CHOICES you made. I appreciate your sympathy for our contract and I sympathize with your furloughed pilots, but I see no way out other than letting it run.

You say that the west will "The West is going to aggressively, and vehemently fight USAPA for as long as is necessary for the very same reason for today's Holiday." Guess what? That's how most east guys feel about the Nic.

It's too bad we didn't have better leadership in ALPA or the company. People that could have found a better way than the road we have taken.

I hope you enjoyed your 4th.

 

[Pi brat]

Well, I'm all but certain to get a red eye tomorrow evening, guess I better drink a few now.

Have one for me. I guess CLT was a mess late this afternoon and we are late tonight. 🙁

 

[luvn737s]

It's really funny how you can say were "stealing" their jobs. There is no theft....but you believe what you want. The captain bid I got is theft, even though cactus53 can't bid it because we still haven't VOTED! I have no right to vote what I want whether it's ALPA or not.

You have a weird sense of entitlement and don't believe in democracy.

Democracy, eh? You think that one side co-opting the process in order to avoid the progress that would benefit the other simply because they have a majority is democracy? A unique perversion of democracy which will end when justice prevails.

 

[Pi brat]

And that is the problem for the East. Nic handed out the jobs each side brought to the merger in order of each individual's seniority on their respective list - their pre-merger position.

Did he? I've asked this question before and if anyone answered it I missed it and apologize.

Nic used slots, not people for the widebody protection, 517 total 330 and 7I capt. and F/Os, and put them on top. But, when he went to slot the rest, he didn't use the slots we had in May 2005, he used the slots we had in 2007, after both sides had shrunk, but the east much more than the west. So he cleaned up the list to 2007, but he made the pilots that were furloughed in 2005 stay in THAT status. It looks to me that he mixed pre-merger and post-merger to favor the west.

 

[luvn737s]

I'm guessing that the union has not bothered to to separate section 6 because of the transition agreement that supposedly has us headed to a joint contract. The company has repeatedly said they have no interest.

That is HILARIOUS! The union is supposed to advocate for the interests of the represented pilots and if that means compelling them to negotiate regardless of whether they feel like it or not, that's the Fair Representation that the west pilots are paying for. If AOL is representing the west pilots, then USAPA owes them some big bucks!

Wanna bet they don't honor that obligation either?

 

[traderjake]

You have a weird sense of entitlement and don't believe in democracy.

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

It's mob rule.

I believe in inalienable rights and the rule of law.

This country is a constitutional republic, not a democracy.

You're the one that wants to put a Reserve F/O ahead of a Captain on the same airplane with your DOH scheme.

You're the one who thinks it's ok to renege on a mutually agreed upon arbitration process.

That's theft.

 

[Pi brat]

That is HILARIOUS! The union is supposed to advocate for the interests of the represented pilots and if that means compelling them to negotiate regardless of whether they feel like it or not, that's the Fair Representation that the west pilots are paying for. If AOL is representing the west pilots, then USAPA owes them some big bucks!

Wanna bet they don't honor that obligation either?

At this point I'm all for separate ops, if we keep the fleet at 2005 ratios. What would Parker say if we went to him with that? What did he say to the west F/As when they went to him asking for separte section 6? Could USAPA force it?

Glad to see you're not swallowing all of AOL's B.S though. I see no one argued with my lie argument.

 

[mrbreeze]

The cyber-pantload shows his bipolar nature.

Can you just choose AC or DC and stop switch hitting? You never know, you might say something worth listening to.

But whining about how you chose your job over your pension and now regret it (or forget) isn't it.

Another diehard ALPA dick? gawd! give it up....your time has passed!

 

[cleardirect]

No...that is not it....

The West has full rights to DFR and LMRDA.....and anything else God has granted them. But it doesn't come from a basis that they are entitled to a starting point of the NIC, but their premerger position.

Btw, you are a little behind on the beers, my friend. 😉

Cheers....Happy 4th

You want to use pre merger positions. Dean Colello and everyone junior to him were FURLOUGHED. Post merger they should still be FURLOUGHED.

That is the starting position. Monda was the JUNIOR pilot on the east list. That is his pre-merger starting position. Our number one pilot was number one. That was his pre-merger starting position.

Now as long as the FURLOUGHED pilots stay furloughed and Monda stays as the junior pilot and our number one continues to be number or or number two. We can continue this conversation. Otherwise it is a waste of time. That was the pre-merger positions. Is that what you are talking about?