US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Move2CLT]

I don't know Bob. This thing is on a pretty fast track and by the time the curtain gets pulled back on the "Wizard" it will be a done deal. If he really needed the East and West to do this deal, he wouldn't have given us the "mushroom" treatment like he has so far.

Furthermore, I don't think the money folks give a rats ass about pilots in misery, as long as they have an injunction, the metal gets moved and lots of labor cost gets saved. Not much to hate, if you are a money man on Wall Street!

We shall see.


seajay

Now that's a realistic post.

 

[Move2CLT]

Don't make the mistake of underestimating the deviousness of "Team Tempe". They are not operating "off the cuff" and have thought this thing through long and hard, you can bet on that. They have plenty more in their "play book" to keep this "punk the pilots" game going, trust!

A DFR from the East wouldn't have to succeed, just keep the JCBA delay game going till the American fences come down and the downtrodden East retires out the door. The only thing that would stop that process is a "voluntary" SLI agreement between the East and West and that has about as much chance of happening as peace in the Middle East!


seajay

Wow, another good post.

 

[Move2CLT]

I'm thinking it would be better if the labor groups from AA and LCC get together and come up with joint solutions. I also think that even the smaller of the two groups can have an effect on the outcome of this possible merger. If the creditors see another seven years of misery with dysfunctional employee groups they might forget about a merger and go it alone. It will be much better for all if both sides have a hand in crafting new agreements in order not to give away the good items in the contracts on both sides.

Since you C&BLs mandate DOH you're going to try and submit something non-Nic.

Since Parker is also at the table and, seeing this submission as unacceptable do to the potential litigation it may bring, Parker will step in and not allow it.

This will then go to arbitration.

The joint solution is the Nic.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Since you C&BLs mandate DOH you're going to try and submit something non-Nic.

Since Parker is also at the table and, seeing this submission as unacceptable do to the potential litigation it may bring, Parker will step in and not allow it.

This will then go to arbitration.

The joint solution is the Nic.

The Corporate solution will be SELL, SELL, SELL, ! http://seekingalpha.com/article/554821-ceo-doug-parker-owns-loads-of-us-airways-stock-as-happy-to-sell-as-buy-in-an-amr-deal?source=yahoo

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Yes, really...you won't be saved by the bell, otherwise called the 9th, with a "not ripe" ruling this tiime. While you're waiting for the "spin the west off" fairy to show up, the only spinning will be your head as the world moves on with or without you.

Jim

Do you read anything or do you, nevermind, The 9th will be involved one way or the other, this case, WILL BE KICKED UP THE STREET! BY EITHER PARTY AOL or USAPA! APA a 7year fence DUI at the helm to sell assets as he sees fit classic!

 

[Metroyet]

I'm thinking it would be better if the labor groups from AA and LCC get together and come up with joint solutions. I also think that even the smaller of the two groups can have an effect on the outcome of this possible merger. If the creditors see another seven years of misery with dysfunctional employee groups they might forget about a merger and go it alone. It will be much better for all if both sides have a hand in crafting new agreements in order not to give away the good items in the contracts on both sides.

So be it. Parker took the cowardly approach to "leadership". If it burns his dream merger...too bad.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

If as you admit team Tempe has thought this through. How would they a miss a huge piece that would allow the east to screw up and delay his deal for 7 more years?

Parker wants this deal done and running one airline. That is where the money will be not saving a few bucks on labor costs.

The 7 years fence will be for equipment not bases. So delaying until the downtrodden leaves does nothing for the downtrodden. It only helps the junior east pilots. Right there is the selfish attitude that has gotten us where we are today.

This time the east is the minority and the majority wants a deal. APA will be the bargaining agent without a vote. The AA pilots will vote in the new contract without needing a single east vote. A/M has a tight timeline. 20 days from the dispute. 90 day award from the close of arbitration. We will have a new CBA, a new contract and a new seniority. My estimate less then a year from the close of the merger.

No delay this time. The senior downtrodden guys will want to get paid this time.

I don't know about you but the EAST has "SCOPE", YOUR FUD comments are hilarious, our COC have already been called into play, Your NIC is DOA and so is the PHX HUB and employment if this deal goes thru, but it won't!

 

[Zone5]

If as you admit team Tempe has thought this through. How would they a miss a huge piece that would allow the east to screw up and delay his deal for 7 more years?

Parker wants this deal done and running one airline. That is where the money will be not saving a few bucks on labor costs.

The 7 years fence will be for equipment not bases. So delaying until the downtrodden leaves does nothing for the downtrodden. It only helps the junior east pilots. Right there is the selfish attitude that has gotten us where we are today.

This time the east is the minority and the majority wants a deal. APA will be the bargaining agent without a vote. The AA pilots will vote in the new contract without needing a single east vote. A/M has a tight timeline. 20 days from the dispute. 90 day award from the close of arbitration. We will have a new CBA, a new contract and a new seniority. My estimate less then a year from the close of the merger.

No delay this time. The senior downtrodden guys will want to get paid this time.

I didn't say anything about delaying the "deal", I said they would prefer to delay a JCBA for as long as possible and they will continue to foment enough hate and discontent to do so. They know pilots better than we know ourselves and they know how to keep us at each others throats.

I think he will "do the deal" and he will be running one airline, just like he is now. All the passengers know is the name on the airplane and that the paint job looks the same. No problem, the passengers couldn't care less how much the pilots get paid, but you can bet your ass "Dougie" does. I think I saw the figure $600,000,000.00 a year to "buy" labor peace with all three pilot groups! That's in real (as in, got to start writing the paychecks) money not synergy "funny" money.

As long as the American pilots get what they want, they won't care how long he manages to string it out (remember they will be sitting behind a very long and tall fence) and believe me if the cost to "Team Tempe" to get the East and West to hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" together is say, half that amount, he will be in no hurry to pony up.

Furthermore, the West has already written the book on how the minority can throw legal roadblocks in front of a JCBA. Lets see, file a DFR, get an injunction maintaining the status quo and were all off to the races, again, sloooowly. Don't think there would be enough East pilots to fund their own "Army"? Think again, like I said you guys have already written the book and I'm sure there are plenty of "smarty pants " lawyers out there who would love to get paid to write a few more chapters!.

Oh sure, there would be a bunch of East pilots that would "go for the money". The question you have to ask yourself is how many? Do you feel lucky? Well do you? I bet "Team Tempe" is pulling for lots of "overtime" in this game!


seajay

 

[Zone5]

So be it. Parker took the cowardly approach to "leadership". If it burns his dream merger...too bad.

Don't worry, he wont be burning anything, except our asses some more!


seajay

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

I didn't say anything about delaying the "deal", I said they would prefer to delay a JCBA for as long as possible and they will continue to foment enough hate and discontent to do so. They know pilots better than we know ourselves and they know how to keep us at each others throats.

I think he will "do the deal" and he will be running one airline, just like he is now. All the passengers know is the name on the airplane and that the paint job looks the same. No problem, the passengers couldn't care less how much the pilots get paid, but you can bet your ass "Dougie" does. I think I saw the figure $600,000,000.00 a year to "buy" labor peace with all three pilot groups! That's in real (as in, got to start writing the paychecks) money not synergy "funny" money.

As long as the American pilots get what they want, they won't care how long he manages to string it out (remember they will be sitting behind a very long and tall fence) and believe me if the cost to "Team Tempe" to get the East and West to hold hands and sing "Kumbaya" together is say, half that amount, he will be in no hurry to pony up.

Furthermore, the West has already written the book on how the minority can throw legal roadblocks in front of a JCBA. Lets see, file a DFR, get an injunction maintaining the status quo and were all off to the races, again, sloooowly. Don't think there would be enough East pilots to fund their own "Army"? Think again, like I said you guys have already written the book and I'm sure there are plenty of "smarty pants " lawyers out there who would love to get paid to write a few more chapters!.

Oh sure, there would be a bunch of East pilots that would "go for the money". The question you have to ask yourself is how many? Do you feel lucky? Well do you? I bet "Team Tempe" is pulling for lots of "overtime" in this game!


seajay

VERY WELL STATED, It is all about the"RISK"! We sold slots today we can sell the PHX hub tomorrow, but it won't bring much!

 

[ClueByFour]

Furthermore, the West has already written the book on how the minority can throw legal roadblocks in front of a JCBA. Lets see, file a DFR, get an injunction maintaining the status quo and were all off to the races, again, sloooowly. Don't think there would be enough East pilots to fund their own "Army"? Think again, like I said you guys have already written the book and I'm sure there are plenty of "smarty pants " lawyers out there who would love to get paid to write a few more chapters!.

The East pilots (assuming Silver rules in favor of the NIC) have exactly two legal maneuvers left. Appeal Silver to the 9th. Appeal the 9th to SCOTUS. That's it.

Dougweiser will most assuredly structure the deal to avoid the East CoC language. The NMB will find a single system. The APA will take over (either by vote or by decree). The only thing left is seniority, which will be arbitration between the APA list and the Nic list.

If, for whatever reasons Silver does not force the NIC, that will be re-litigated just as soon as USAPA tries to pass a non-NIC list across to the arbitrator. Or APA tries to use a non-NIC list. In which case, a large chunk of the East pilots will likely enjoy LOA 93 until retirement while the APA guys are raking in the dough.

Really what this comes down to is whether the East pilots are willing to finally accept their previous arbitration award, or work under LOA 93 until the DFR is finally found ripe while the other half of the new company enjoys a massive pay differential. I'd say there's no way anyone can be that stupid, but as mentioned before--I won't fly on East metal anymore, because I don't think having someone at the helm who would strategically lose a game of checkers to a 5 year old or cut off their own nose to spite their face is wise.

 

[Metroyet]

I don't know about you but the EAST has "SCOPE", YOUR FUD comments are hilarious, our COC have already been called into play, Your NIC is DOA and so is the PHX HUB and employment if this deal goes thru, but it won't!

You're spinning out of control....so many delusional fantasys in so few keystrokes.

 

[Metroyet]

Furthermore, the West has already written the book on how the minority can throw legal roadblocks in front of a JCBA. Lets see, file a DFR, get an injunction maintaining the status quo and were all off to the races, again, sloooowly. Don't think there would be enough East pilots to fund their own "Army"? Think again, like I said you guys have already written the book and I'm sure there are plenty of "smarty pants " lawyers out there who would love to get paid to write a few more chapters!.
seajay

Funny how the tables have turned! Yep. You guys form your own Army and put up a fight. You guys couldn't agree on a frigging office lease without making it WWIII and you think you can pull off what AOL has...while being FIRMLY on the wrong side of the law?? Sure.

Why do you think AOL has been so successful at stopping USTUPID at every turn? Stall tactics alone? Nope. They're successful because they're right and you're wrong. That simple.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

The East pilots (assuming Silver rules in favor of the NIC) have exactly two legal maneuvers left. Appeal Silver to the 9th. Appeal the 9th to SCOTUS. That's it.

Dougweiser will most assuredly structure the deal to avoid the East CoC language. The NMB will find a single system. The APA will take over (either by vote or by decree). The only thing left is seniority, which will be arbitration between the APA list and the Nic list.

If, for whatever reasons Silver does not force the NIC, that will be re-litigated just as soon as USAPA tries to pass a non-NIC list across to the arbitrator. Or APA tries to use a non-NIC list. In which case, a large chunk of the East pilots will likely enjoy LOA 93 until retirement while the APA guys are raking in the dough.

Really what this comes down to is whether the East pilots are willing to finally accept their previous arbitration award, or work under LOA 93 until the DFR is finally found ripe while the other half of the new company enjoys a massive pay differential. I'd say there's no way anyone can be that stupid, but as mentioned before--I won't fly on East metal anymore, because I don't think having someone at the helm who would strategically lose a game of checkers to a 5 year old or cut off their own nose to spite their face is wise.

Doug doesn't have the financial or backing of APA to "STRUCTURE " a deal for the COC if you read the agreement carefully, the APA put in it that AMR MNGMNT was not eligble for any COC kickback in their contract, in fact he has already approached USAPA about giving it up! I see a T/A (10% chance it happens) 7 years of litigation, stagnent WEST(if not sold off first) , raises, COC litigation and no combined airline for at LEAST 10 years! All 3 JUST AS SEAJAY PREDICTS! But I do see massive overlap layoffs as DUI moves to DFW!

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

The East pilots (assuming Silver rules in favor of the NIC) have exactly two legal maneuvers left. Appeal Silver to the 9th. Appeal the 9th to SCOTUS. That's it.

Dougweiser will most assuredly structure the deal to avoid the East CoC language. The NMB will find a single system. The APA will take over (either by vote or by decree). The only thing left is seniority, which will be arbitration between the APA list and the Nic list.

If, for whatever reasons Silver does not force the NIC, that will be re-litigated just as soon as USAPA tries to pass a non-NIC list across to the arbitrator. Or APA tries to use a non-NIC list. In which case, a large chunk of the East pilots will likely enjoy LOA 93 until retirement while the APA guys are raking in the dough.

Really what this comes down to is whether the East pilots are willing to finally accept their previous arbitration award, or work under LOA 93 until the DFR is finally found ripe while the other half of the new company enjoys a massive pay differential. I'd say there's no way anyone can be that stupid, but as mentioned before--I won't fly on East metal anymore, because I don't think having someone at the helm who would strategically lose a game of checkers to a 5 year old or cut off their own nose to spite their face is wise.

And they fly on someone else thing, "FEEL FREE TO MOVE ABOUT THE COUNTRY"!