US Pilots labor thread 4/17-

[oldiebutgoody]

Seems another swing and a miss by the so called mambers of usapASS and the so called "union pilot."

If by "swing and a miss" you meant "homerun". And what is usapASS? Another juvenile (and by "juvenile" I mean childish) reference to YOUR union, maybe?

 

[boeingplt]

Don't know where you're getting some of the numbers you're throwing out, but they bear little resemblance to reality. Not even close.

Jim

Just before the age 65 rule we were losing about 35 per month with a portion of those early out due medical. The mandatory element was scheduled to increase and hover between 250 and 300+ for quite some time. In about two and a half years the guys who were approaching age sixty when the rule changed will be approaching 65 so the rate of retirements will be similar to what it was before the change. In fact the effect that the rule change has on proximity to social security combined with the sick bank average of the group suggests (according to the ATA and ALPA) will likely produce a higher rate than before.

East west issues aside, retirements are a good thing no matter how you slice it.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Just before the age 65 rule we were losing about 35 per month with a portion of those early out due medical.

A good portion due to medical. One of the nice things about having the East seniority list in a computer file is the ability to sort by whatever data, including date of hire. If you take out those on medical, there aren't much over 150 retirements/year that would provide upward movement for at least part of the list. And the numbers are less the first few years after the first active pilots reach 65. So Barristers dream of 200-300 retirements creating that many captain vacancies for pilots to move up to is just that - a dream.

East west issues aside, retirements are a good thing no matter how you slice it.

Agreed, and one of the reasons I didn't like the change to age 65. I moved up mostly because of age 60 retirements after the PI/US merger and those below me should have the same opportunity. Letting pilots work 5 years longer delayed the movement of the less senior, and now they'll have to work to 65 to reach the same level they would have reached at 60 without the age change. So an option to work longer for those initially impacted becomes almost mandatory for those following behind.

Jim

 

[HPDriver]

Thanks!!....200-300 East upgrades a year starting in 2 1/2 years. Just thought I would remind you!!!!
Gents this is truly sad. If we don't get caught up in another merger a lot of good things will start happening
in the East when retirements start up again!! Your West attrition.....have at it.

VNIMN
NPJB.

2 1/2 years? Still a long way to go.

And, as an FYI, after you upgrade on the east, you're still working under LOA93.

 

[cleardirect]

Thanks!!....200-300 East upgrades a year starting in 2 1/2 years. Just thought I would remind you!!!!
Gents this is truly sad. If we don't get caught up in another merger a lot of good things will start happening
in the East when retirements start up again!! Your West attrition.....have at it.

VNIMN
NPJB.

You guys never cease to amaze me. You guys scream about attrition and try and tell anyone that will listen how valuable your attrition is. Well Nicolau listened to the evidence and gave it the value it deserved. Not much.

So you guys think that 200- 300 pilots gaining a possible upgrade or more likely moving from reserve to line holder, is better than 5000 pilots gaining, nice union thinking. How many of those 200-300 are captains? How many are F/O's? Try thinking about this for more than one second. About half of the east retirements come from F/O’s. So there is no upgrade involved. A majority of aircraft are narrow body’s not wide body so a majority of upgrades will be to the lowest pay in the industry as captain. Again maybe reserve to line holder is the best most of this attrition will produce.

What does attrition do for the captains that already hold a line? Of the 200-300 per year that go how many will open a captain slot on a WB? 10-20? So the guys that are already captain get nothing for attrition. No money, no vacation nothing. But they continue to have to listen to how the F/O’s are getting screwed and how that captain has to continue supporting them by avoiding a new contract a pay raise for the AFOC.

Do the math. Some upgrades and a little better lifestyle for 200-300 pilots so what. A new contract gets everybody paid and you guys get a much bigger percentage of the total contract. Does attrition get you more vacation or better schedules?

Nope typical short term thinking from the east. I got mine screw everyone else attitude from the east.

 

[boeingplt]

Agreed, and one of the reasons I didn't like the change to age 65. I moved up mostly because of age 60 retirements after the PI/US merger and those below me should have the same opportunity. Letting pilots work 5 years longer delayed the movement of the less senior, and now they'll have to work to 65 to reach the same level they would have reached at 60 without the age change. So an option to work longer for those initially impacted becomes almost mandatory for those following behind.

Jim

Couldn't agree more, on the up side it has me watching my diet and exercising so I can make it that far

 

[cleardirect]

For all of you guys hoping and praying that attrition kicks in before a new contract had better take a look at the pay rates and do some serious thinking.

Take a look at the new delta rates because that is the new industry standard. Do the math what kind of raise does delta get everyone compared to a few moving up the east much lower pay scale. While most everyone else waits to move anywhere. These are 12 year 2010 rates.

A 320 captain moving to 767 increases $16.00 and might hold reserve. A 320 captain getting a delta raise is $36.00 per hour in their current seat and relative bidding position. That 330 captain has nowhere to go with attrition. He gets $0.00 but a delta raise gets him a $37.00 per hour raise. Boys there is only so much you can expect people to do.

That F/O going from 320 to 767 is a $13.00 per hour raise. Staying in your seat a delta raise is $25.00 per hour.

With attrition a few F/O’s will upgrade from $85.00 to $125.00- $40.00 an hour. A delta contract gets every 320 F/O a $25.00 raise. How do you justify the bottom F/O line holders that will have to wait another 5-6 years to upgrade giving up $25.00 an hour now?

Holding out for some attrition is a selfish and short sighted view of the situation that we have. Things will change the dynamics can not stay the same. Mergers, BK, economic changes something will move this from where we are now. You east guys need to start thinking rationally instead of emotionally. How about you go home and tell the significant other that you are giving away $25.00 an hour now because someday you will upgrade to the lowest paid captain. But with a new contract it will be a $161.00 not $125.00 when you do upgrade.

 

[Poug Darker]

But with a new contract it will be a $161.00 not $125.00 when you do upgrade.

New contract? What new contract? Has the company proposed offering these rates?
Talk about fantasizing!
Show me the money, not a pipe dream, and we'll discuss it.
Otherwise, all this hyperbole is nothing but blather. The wait is on not for attrition to kick in - that is going to happen one way or another anyway.
The current pause is for the court to make up its collective mind and inform us of what that conclusion is, and for the arbitrator to tell us if we've won the pay restoration case.
Another poster said the 'time is now' to proceed. Well, I agree that everyone wants a raise and better working conditions, but until these two decisions by third parties are rendered, it doesn't seem like a good idea to rush into anything.
The east from junior to senior has resolved to wait and see before making any further decisions.
I think that is a great idea, now that merger mania has subsided.
Cheers.

 

[OTTER574]

If by "swing and a miss" you meant "homerun". And what is usapASS? Another juvenile (and by "juvenile" I mean childish) reference to YOUR union, maybe?

I'm a member in this union called usapa for one thing only and it just happened yesterday. I voted.