We all need to wake up

[Cactus737]

We're not looking to hurt the west. We are looking for a fair seniority agreement. Without it, no deal at all: whatever the price.

I doubt the top 2/3 of your list is willing to forgoe a pay raise so that some furloughed guy MIGHT get an upgrade.

And you are looking to hurt the west - your idea of "fair" is a system whereby East gets ALL of the upgrades while West stagnates.

I understand that you would have benefited from the Nicolau award. But you wont. I understand that you now would like to get a pay raise to boot. Without a palatable seniority integration, I doubt you'll get one.

Actually, we can and will get a pay raise because we are Section 6 amendable.

As for "benefiting" from the Nicolau Award, you need to check your facts. I, along with most AWA pilots, lost relative seniority and even if the list were implemented tomorrow, our career progression has been slowed significantly from what it was before the merger.

It's like this: I'm in a lifeboat with my family. You swim along and grab the side of the boat. I beat your knuckles bloody to save my family.

Boy are you dilusional.

It's more like this - your life raft has had a leak in it for some time, and has been taking on water. I threw you a patch kit from my row boat, and you stopped the leak. Now you're mad at me because I won't trade boats with you.

It's not about getting what we might get. It's about our careers. Your position offers a job, and not a good one at that. Being junior to thousands of less tenured pilots to the point of eliminating upgrade possibilities for the life of our careers is a deal breaker.

This is where you're getting confused. The fact that you have as much longevity as you do and are still JUNIOR, is a problem that you had before the merger. AWA pilots have had a hard time quantifying the fact that AAA pilots will get most of the gains from a joint agreement.

The fact is that you had no possiblity of employment BEFORE the merger, and now, even if you never upgrade, you will stay employed making 30%-40% more than you did when you were furloughed.

If you can't get your arms around that, at least give up on the notion that we will facilitate a pay raise for you.

Funny you should say that while you're MEC complains that AWA doesn't support their parity push.

80% of the gains from a joint contract go to East, so I assure you that East support of joint negitiations is far from "facilitating a payraise for the West".

Obviously, you haven't "given it any thought". As it's not all about you.

But you holding the rest of your pilot group hostage from a 30%-40% raise so that YOU might be able to upgrade isn't all about YOU?

Give that some thought, so you're not upset when the upper 2/3 of your list throws you under the bus.

 

[ussnark]

If only management will follow along with that.

That, indeed, is the key.

What choice, pray tell, does management have? Can they force any union direction? Would they stamp their tiny little feet and demand, yes, demand the pilots get along?

It is their "synergies" management is losing, and losing big time. We are talking hundreds of millions of dollars.

Not certain, but I think the easties are not in line for profit sharing for a while. How about you westies?

I say, we let management walk around with egg on their faces for a while. Let the board and Wall Street see how incompetent they are. Ensure the blot on their resumes cripples their future.

Then, have a surviving union step up and "save" the company. Could be done. Just takes integrity on the part of the pilots.

 

[EastUS]

I doubt the top 2/3 of your list is willing to forgoe a pay raise so that some furloughed guy MIGHT get an upgrade.

Actually, we can and will get a pay raise because we are Section 6 amendable.

Boy are you dilusional.

Give that some thought, so you're not upset when the upper 2/3 of your list throws you under the bus.

You seem intent upon throwing forth what are clearly projections of your own moral "values" as per what the 2/3 will do. Anytime an individual is "certain" as to what "others will do"...they're just trumpeting forth their own expected behaviors, given the same scenario.

Hate to burst your bubble....but I'm in said "top 2/3" portion, and I'm not the least bit interested in buying off on a few pieces of silver to "throw...under the bus".

As for your other notions:

"Actually, we can and will get a pay raise because we are Section 6 amendable." Plus: "Boy are you dilusional." ..collectively speaks for that issue nicely.

Frankly? I'm fine if/when you guys can gain any pay raises. I'm not interested in inflicting damage on the west...just in preventing our east guys from being "thrown under the bus". I must note that I've yet to hear ANY AWA poster lament the current west vs east pay disparity in any way...funny thing that

You guys do not yet seem to "get" that the "seniority" travesty's a deal breaker....period.

 

[Mike]

Wow, you sure sound confident about this 30 to 40 % raise. I dont think that is part of Dougweiser's "cost neutral" plan.

 

[700UW]

Come on nark, show us the federal law that gaurantees seniority, still waiting.

 

[ussnark]

Come on nark, show us the federal law that gaurantees seniority, still waiting.

That, my illiterate friend, is not what I said.

If you wish to start a different thread, there is a button you can push that has the following text: New Thread.

Barring that, you are OT.

 

[700UW]

When you are furloughed, you are guaranteed a job over everyone else, in seniority order and not just promised a job. It is a federal law, not a contractual thingy.

Guess you need to read it again.

Try again.

 

[Cactus737]

You seem intent upon throwing forth what are clearly projections of your own moral "values" as per what the 2/3 will do. Anytime an individual is "certain" as to what "others will do"...they're just trumpeting forth their own expected behaviors, given the same scenario.

No trumpeting - just doing a little history study of your pilot group.

Hate to burst your bubble....but I'm in said "top 2/3" portion, and I'm not the least bit interested in buying off on a few pieces of silver to "throw...under the bus".

My bubble was burst the day the merger was announced.

BTW - does anybody admit to voting for LOA 93?

As for your other notions:

"Actually, we can and will get a pay raise because we are Section 6 amendable." Plus: "Boy are you dilusional." ..collectively speaks for that issue nicely.

And how does East expect to achieve pay parity outside of section 6?

Frankly? I'm fine if/when you guys can gain any pay raises. I'm not interested in inflicting damage on the west...just in preventing our east guys from being "thrown under the bus". I must note that I've yet to hear ANY AWA poster lament the current west vs east pay disparity in any way...funny thing that

You're just not listening - West has long advocated for East parity - in a joint contract. As soon as I see AAA posters asking for West stock options & PBGC payments, then I'll call my reps and ask them to support East parity.

You guys do not yet seem to "get" that the "seniority" travesty's a deal breaker....period.

Did you actually READ the award, or are you just relying on what your MEC is telling you?

 

[EastUS]

No trumpeting - just doing a little history study of your pilot group.


Did you actually READ the award, or are you just relying on what your MEC is telling you?

Regardless of how it's couched; you're projecting your own notions of either what you would do, or just hoping that we'll "throw" everyone "under the bus"...so that you can get your precious St Nic "award" fired up...No Thanks :down:

Ummm...yeah...I actually read the "list". That was enough to bring on an unprecedented combination of hysterical laughter, and yet a simultaneous desire to throw up.

As for what "your MEC is telling you?"...Have you not noticed that I'm VERY much in favor of dumping Alpo altogether? What would possibly make me interested in anything those sorry MEC clowns..on east OR west now have to say? They're just stalling for time...and harrumphing away merrily, trying to find a way out of the mess that they created for us all...and surprisingly this time; for themselves as well.

 

[luvn737s]

It's like this: I'm in a lifeboat with my family. You swim along and grab the side of the boat. I beat your knuckles bloody to save my family.

See that's the argument you make during mediation and arbitration. Now that's over. In essence you were so cocksure that the lifeboat was watertight, you wanted to prove it by stabbing the survival knife in it a few times. Now your family is drowning and you're to blame, not the ocean.

 

[Mr Furlough]

All I'm saying is; it simply isn't going down this way folks. The seniority issue needs closure before either/both group(s) can move forward with any meaningful results.

You don't get closure until a palatable resolution to the Nicolau award exist.

You don't get a reasonable/joint contract until a palatable resolution to the Nicolau award exist.

This is a very real problem. And until the west comes to it's senses and embraces the problems of the Nicolau award, we will be all be right back here bitching on the board-empty handed.

 

[Bear96]

When you are furloughed, you are guaranteed a job over everyone else, in seniority order and not just promised a job. It is a federal law, not a contractual thingy.

Could you please provide a cite for this federal law?

(EDITED TO ADD: Oops, I see 700UW beat me to it.)

 

[exB717Flyer]

You don't get closure until a palatable resolution to the Nicolau award exist.

If your extortion works forcing the West to give concessions I can assure you there will not be closure. Drop the suit, accept the Nicolau list, and enter into negotiations with us through the JNC as equals and then we'll both get closure.

 

[ussnark]

Guess you need to read it again.

Try again.

No, I guess you need glasses.

"In seniority order" should be a clue and restricts the set of "everyone". Everyone, meaning those of the job classification appropriate, of course.

 

[700UW]

Once again there is not a Federal Law on when on how someone gets recalled.

If you are unionized it is done by the terms of your CBA, if not then the company sets it recall policy.

Maybe you need some comprehension classes.

Since this is the fourth post asking you to provide the law.

Come on and show the whole board what it is.