What Flow Through?

[Rico]

Rico,

I understand where your bitterness comes from and I'm sorry you feel the way you do about PDT/ALG pilots. You and I have both had the carrot dangling out infront of us for many years. You got a little closer to the carrot than most PDT/ALG pilots will ever get.

As for the J4J program, it doesn't mean squat to anyone at PDT anymore. We were promised jets for concessions and they never showed up. No jets, no jets for jobs. Then came the whole MDA debacle. User beware. There were a lot of people that passed it up for various reasons. There were also a lot of guys that jumped on it for various reasons. Regardless, it didn't work out for anyone. There isn't one US Air, PDT, PSA, or ALG pilot happy with what happened.

Now, the carrot dangles again with the flow through. At this point, PDT has been beat down so many times over so many years that we are not hopeful about anything good happening. If it makes your day when the flow is dissolved, then atleast one person will have a smile on his/her face.

Don't worry I'm sure you'll get to play with a new shiny toy soon and, of course, I will make sure you get to touch it first.

Let me be clear on one thing. I did not start out wishing for the demise of the flow thru, rather quite the opposite. But I was led to this desire by the actions (and inaction) of a few individuals in power on the PSA and PDT MEC's.

Why would I, being real junior on the mainline senority list, not want another option to fall back on if furloughes occur...?

But the fact of the matter is that when the time came for both PSA and PDT to step up and accept mainline pilots that were to be furloughed from the E-170, both balked at the notion.

If the leadership of your two pilot groups had a shread of foresight, they would have thrown everything they had into whatever was needed to make a place for any MDA pilot that wanted one... As THAT would have solidified your ability to flow up when the time came.

But no.

PSA's ALPA stupidly claimed that the E-170 pilots that had come from ALG/PDT were not really "mainline" pilots, nor eligible for any JFJ position...

Meaning that "we" had never flowed up. Which also meant that no Flow Thru had ever really existed (for either us now, or for the wholly owneds in the future)...

<Sound of PSA MEC shooting itself in the foot>

Duh...

As for PDT's obvious inaction (on purpose or otherwise) when it mattered most (and could have had the best results), I have no clue. You will have to ask your own reps for that answer. Good luck on that one.

What gets me most is that hardly any MDA pilots would have gone to either PSA or PDT. A few, but nowhere any amount that would have caused real heartburn for anyone (for the opportunity that was wasted).

Dumb dumb dumb. :down:


Those of us that left ALG/PDT to fly the E-170, had really paved the way for a workable flow to be a lasting reality. We put to rest any lingering doubts about a wholly owned pilot's flying abilities, and we gained a lot of respect when we stood firm against the Jerry Glass BS that so many had fallen for.

But now, that does not matter. Not one of us thinks of ourselves as "CEL Pilots" anymore. We are plain and simply furloughed Mainline, with no ties nor loyalty towards our former pilot groups because when we were in need, the help was not there.

As a result of all this, I am now 100% against a flow thru, because I do not think that the Wholly Owneds can be trusted to hold up their part of a deal if Mainline pilots have to come downwards once again. The noise the PSA pilots are making nowadays about having to "put up" with additional JFJ pilots while getting yet further aircraft added to their fleet only solidifies my opinion.

When the day comes, feel free to apply for an off the street position at the bottom of our list, much in the same way we were told to do at PSA and PDT.

That's pretty cold, but it is the same kinda cold that produced my bitterness, towards those I would have fought for in the past...

 

[careerfurloughee]

Rico,


As for the J4J program, it doesn't mean squat to anyone at PDT anymore. We were promised jets for concessions and they never showed up. No jets, no jets for jobs.

PropPiedmont,

If no jets showed up why do you have J4J pilots?

 

[Rico]

Furthermore, I don't see any real name calling or insulting done by Rico in this thread. Looks like everything he says is basically true. Certainly nothing blatant that requires a post by you of all people to challenge his credibility.

Aww don't sweat it, Me and him go waaaaaay back on here.

I have been making him look bad since '04.

 

[PropPiedmont]

PropPiedmont,

If no jets showed up why do you have J4J pilots?

We don't have any J4J pilots at PDT because we have no jets. We do have the provisions for the J4J program if we were to ever get jets.

 

[PropPiedmont]

As for PDT's obvious inaction (on purpose or otherwise) when it mattered most (and could have had the best results), I have no clue. You will have to ask your own reps for that answer. Good luck on that one.

What gets me most is that hardly any MDA pilots would have gone to either PSA or PDT. A few, but nowhere any amount that would have caused real heartburn for anyone (for the opportunity that was wasted).

Like I said, I understand where your bitterness comes from.

What is really funny about the abandonment of the MDA pilots by PDT is that we are now under staffed. PDT is very short on pilots. We are short on captains, but we can't upgrade because we're also about 30 to 40 short on first officers. Can't pull FOs off line to upgrade yet because of coverage concerns. Most of our reserve CAs have been flying around as FOs, while getting JR-Manned of days off to fly as CAs. I had four days off last week and scheduling called me seven times to pick up flying.

If PDT management would have recognized a flow back or our MEC press the issue of the MDA furloughs, then we most likely wouldn't be severely short staffed right now.

 

[Rico]

Like I said, I understand where your bitterness comes from.

What is really funny about the abandonment of the MDA pilots by PDT is that we are now under staffed. PDT is very short on pilots. We are short on captains, but we can't upgrade because we're also about 30 to 40 short on first officers. Can't pull FOs off line to upgrade yet because of coverage concerns. Most of our reserve CAs have been flying around as FOs, while getting JR-Manned of days off to fly as CAs. I had four days off last week and scheduling called me seven times to pick up flying.

If PDT management would have recognized a flow back or our MEC press the issue of the MDA furloughs, then we most likely wouldn't be severely short staffed right now.

My advice to you is to get the CRJ-900's at Dash 8-300 wages, undercutting the PSA pilots.

Not because I am a big fan of whipsaw, but it would serve the PSA pilots right to get a taste of their own medicine, and I would rather see the decent guys back at PDT fly em rather than PSA get one more aircraft of any size.

So you can take a wild guess which of the two wholly owned I am more bitter towards.

 

[Furloughedagain]

Yes, there was one time that RJs at the mainline were actually considered. It was in Gangwal's "Plan B from Outer Space" after the UAL merger was scuttled.

All bets were off after 09/11 which, according to Gangwal, "...opened certain doors that were unavailable to us prior to 09/11" (force majeur)

I'm no fan of the Chris Beebe MEC, but US Airways management never offered meaningful discussions regarding placing RJs on mainline prior to that. The discussion was always centered around lifting scope language to allow more RJs to be flown by affiliates.

 

[Dorf]

We are short on captains, but we can't upgrade because we're also about 30 to 40 short on first officers. Can't pull FOs off line to upgrade yet because of coverage concerns.

Unfortunately, even if they were to offer you the CRJ900's, management would probably say they can't take them in the time frame alotted because of the lack of pilots to fly the current schedule. That would really suck!

If PDT management would have recognized a flow back or our MEC press the issue of the MDA furloughs, then we most likely wouldn't be severely short staffed right now.

It's too bad they were so short sighted. Most likely, less than 10 pilots would have returned to PDT...it's a shame that the PDT/ALG pilots will now have to negotiate for something they could have had if they had not helped close the door on their fellow pilots by not insisting on the rightful positions of the pilots who may have wanted to flow back. Of course, even that wouldn't help with a 30-40 pilot shortage.

 

[chichi]

Unfortunately, even if they were to offer you the CRJ900's, management would probably say they can't take them in the time frame alotted because of the lack of pilots to fly the current schedule. That would really suck!
It's too bad they were so short sighted. Most likely, less than 10 pilots would have returned to PDT...it's a shame that the PDT/ALG pilots will now have to negotiate for something they could have had if they had not helped close the door on their fellow pilots by not insisting on the rightful positions of the pilots who may have wanted to flow back. Of course, even that wouldn't help with a 30-40 pilot shortage.

Please understand....the pilots of PDT are for the MDA guys to come back.They have that right!!!! It's Mgt. that will not let them. They know that if they let them flow back down then the flow up/down would be, well, flowing. Which means that when the 190s come a LOT of the pilots would jump over to mainline. Mgt would be left with a huge pilot loss/training disaster. This is all very calculated. Mgt is very aware of what they are doing.

 

[PropPiedmont]

Please understand....the pilots of PDT are for the MDA guys to come back.They have that right!!!! It's Mgt. that will not let them. They know that if they let them flow back down then the flow up/down would be, well, flowing. Which means that when the 190s come a LOT of the pilots would jump over to mainline. Mgt would be left with a huge pilot loss/training disaster. This is all very calculated. Mgt is very aware of what they are doing.

I spoke with Steve Farrow about this and if the flow up happens. Straight from his mouth came this statement, "If we get a flow into mainline then Piedmont will be be hurting real bad. Worse than when all the guys left to go to Mid Atlantic. We weren't ready for that many pilots to leave."

 

[fr8tmastr]

I believe its management that is slowing things now, but that was not the case back in August. When the first MDA guys were looking at furlough all I heard from the PDT mec was "Our New Captains dont want to be downgraded if you come back" and "If you come back our FO's will have to wait longer for upgrade". And the best one of all time was from the MEC chairman himself " I dont represent you, you have to talk to your MEC".

According to the PDT reps I personally spoke with, PDT was expecting a massive furlough from ML and figured that there would be hundreds of ML pilots coming down to PDT. I tried to explain that this was not the case and even if it was these guys would not be tripping over themselves to get to the Dash. this all fell on deaf ears.

The PDT MEC is correct in that a flow through has not been worked out, but they sure missed the opportunity to lock it up when their ex brothers and sisters needed help.

 

[Rico]

I believe its management that is slowing things now, but that was not the case back in August. When the first MDA guys were looking at furlough all I heard from the PDT mec was "Our New Captains dont want to be downgraded if you come back" and "If you come back our FO's will have to wait longer for upgrade". And the best one of all time was from the MEC chairman himself " I dont represent you, you have to talk to your MEC".

According to the PDT reps I personally spoke with, PDT was expecting a massive furlough from ML and figured that there would be hundreds of ML pilots coming down to PDT. I tried to explain that this was not the case and even if it was these guys would not be tripping over themselves to get to the Dash. this all fell on deaf ears.

The PDT MEC is correct in that a flow through has not been worked out, but they sure missed the opportunity to lock it up when their ex brothers and sisters needed help.

This is why I no longer trust the leadership of either W/O pilot group.

MDA furloughs, no additional aircraft = Sorry

MDA done furloughing, New E-190's on the way = Let's talk about Flow Thru...

The other thing that really bothered me was the notion that those of us that had left ALG/PDT to fly the E-170 at Mainline would be terminated, and that we would simply disappear instead of being recalled.

From what I heard, that little thought wqas planted into the greedy and gullible heads of certain W/O leaders... Well, his friends call him Jerry, I call him something else.

But the end result IMO was the more greedy and less smart of the W/O leadership saw an opportunity to bypass what amounted to basically about two dozen pilots that had been senior to them at ALG/PDT when they "flowed up" to mainline.

Think again.

looks like JG played them like the suckers they truly are.

Not hard to guess why. JG needed to limit the options of the MDA pilots to get as many of us to go over to Republic as possible. He totally failed on that, but IMO the one result he did create was that it lulled the W/O's into not fighting for the flow thru when it they should of.

So now every single CEL pilot (PDT + PSA) is junior to the most junior pilot on the APL. That APL now includes all the pilots that have flown the E-170 for Mainline. So now instead of a a few dozen in front of them at Mainline, those rocket scientists that listened to their good buddy Jerry now have 150 pilots + ahead of them IF a flow thru ever happens.

IMHO, that's what you get for being greedy and for ever trusting JG...

Dumb dumb dumb.


"All or None" was the motto of the MDA pilots. Think about hopw things would have been different if it had been the motto for all of us...

 

[NCflyer]

Here we go again with the he said - she said deal again.

As has been stated many times before, I can't tell you what was said by whom to whom except to or from myself. But on 4 different occasions, 3 with LEC officers, 1 with MEC officers, I was told that while the LEC/MEC was willing, even desired to have the former MDA ALG/PDT pilots return to PDT, it was the PDT management that was/is unwilling to entertain the idea without any written protocol to facilitate their return. Then and now I still believe something should be done as quickly as possible to let any former ALG/PDT return to PDT with their seniority. Recently I was told by a MEC officer that it has been over 1 month since anyone at the AAA MEC even wanted to dicuss the return of MDA pilots to PDT, so makes you wonder who is holding it up AAA or PDT?

As for the reported PDT MECC stating that he didn't represent the MDA pilots - isn't that 100% correct? Once at MDA those pilots were represented by the AAA MEC.

 

[WOpropTrash]

Rico, and everyone else at the WO's had the same opportunity, to make their choice of whether to chase the jet dream at MDA or keep thieir current turboprop positions. This was all based on the information we had at the time.

To me and many other WO pilots, without the MDA contract, flow up/down provisions, and everything else, in writing, it was an easy choice to stay where we were. Those that chose to chase the dream, with all the unanswered questions and what-ifs, made their own choice.

So here we are today. Some a little upset because they chose to jump on what appeared to be a easy way to mainline, and those of us who would not go anywhere without every question answered in writing. Each had the opportunity to make their own decision. Each must live with their choice.

Did anyone come out ahead? Apparently not. I'm still flying around in my old Dash, at less than I made years ago, and the MDA guys are upset because no one claims to represent them, neither mainline nor the WO's.

People, you made the choice. Live with the outcome. Take responsibility for your actions. It is not always someone else's fault that things did not turn out the way you dreamed.

By the way Rico, I would have been way senior to you. I could care less if you flowed up or down. You made the choice. Just stop trying to put the blame on everyone else.

 

[fr8tmastr]

I'm glad you are so proud of yourself with your decision, but I think you have missed the point. This thread was started with a complaint about the lack of a flow up.

For the record the pilots that went to MDA are represented, I dont know of anyone that claims anything else. As Airways pilots they are represented by the Airways MEC.