More MEM Cuts

[737823]

W/O access to various editions of seniority lists to compare/contrast, I'd say it's almost impossible. I can see them, but it's not a link posted on the front of the company webpage like other groups have.

We used to have that as well. Refer to Airlinelifer's earlier post; he put it much more succinctly than I could've. All movement- lateral or promotion was posted. There's no reason why DL can't set it up to do the same.

I agree transparency is good but DL does not have to make this information available or justify their decisions to anyone.

Dunno if you are directing that at me or Roach, but again, I didn't say that- only that there is a lot less movement than the company would like people to think.

Roach. It is not true and he was spreading lies and misinformation. This was before the campaign so it influenced peoples' decisions in voting. I'm sure there are many other compelling reasons he could come up with that RR is not in employee interests and peddle those but to say they get no raises or opportunities for advancement is untrue. I'm sure if DL was spreading misinformation about the IAM, their leadership and influencing people's votes the union would be all over them...oh wait the union tried when the NMB found DL acted appropriately and upheld the election results.

What people don't understand is management, senior management especially (Senior VPs, CFOs, CEOs, Directors, etc) are all under careful scrutiny by the FTC, SEC, and other government organizations. They have to be very careful of what they say and how they say it since people (especially in the investment community) rely on their words and assessment of situations in decision making. Union leadership on the other hand isn't held accountable.

Like I said it is disingenuous for him to come on and cover himself up as a philanthropist representing the interests of workers and making an appeal to "the middle class". Bob has posted on this matter extensively, the problem is union officials have become out of touch with the needs and interests of workers today probably because they have enjoyed perks and haven't worked the line in many, many years or decades. Bob is right, the attack on workers has been going on for years and the union leaders didn't bat an eye. Once the unions come under attack and their positions are threatened they act.

And what did Labor do about it? Nothing. Buffy didnt take paycuts, neither did Hoffa or any of the other unions leaders that rolled us over. They were all hoping that one of the other airlines would go out of business and they could scoop up a few more dues payers without having to raid, since they wont. I'd been calling for a General Strike by all the airline unions, a political act against how the courts were dealing with and running over the RLA, but instead I was removed from office by our International. The even brought up how I was calling for a General Strike during the Kangaroo Court trial they put on. Now we see where states have upped the ante, they arent just going after wages and benifits of workers anymore, now they are going after their right to organize, well now they(the leaders) have something to lose and all of a sudden its time to fight back. They didnt want us to fight back when they stripped us of everything we pay dues for but now they want us to fight back because their ability to collect those dues are at stake, their asses are on the line, they may have to go back to the floor and work under terms they helped put in place!

Well stay tuned. Labor has failed many times in the past, Patco, the 2002-2005 Airline BK scam, the rape of the UAW, but now the very existance of collective bargaining is being threatened. Sure our leaders have let us down many times in the past but now they have something at stake as well, we may fight each other but we both will fight you because we know for sure where you stand. You may very well see this country's first ever "General Strike" in the not too distant future.

Sure you may say our numbers are low but look at where we are. The Seaports, Airports, Train Stations, Bus Depots, Subway Stations and truck stops. ALL UNIONIZED. Most require specialized skills that are not readily available. Even Deltas Pilots and Dispatchers are union. Despite our low numbers we can stop the economy cold.

In all these industries our rights have been compromised, whether its the RLA, the Taylor Law or any of the other laws we've seen over the years where our rights are restricted, in Wisconson we can see what the next step will be for the rest of us if we dont act.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

I agree transparency is good but DL does not have to make this information available or justify their decisions to anyone.

Of course they don't. Why do you think I said they'd pay any price to maintain control?

Roach. It is not true and he was spreading lies and misinformation. This was before the campaign so it influenced peoples' decisions in voting. I'm sure there are many other compelling reasons he could come up with that RR is not in employee interests and peddle those but to say they get no raises or opportunities for advancement is untrue. I'm sure if DL was spreading misinformation about the IAM, their leadership and influencing people's votes the union would be all over them...oh wait the union tried when the NMB found DL acted appropriately and upheld the election results.

They got a way with *plenty*. Was it "appropriate" in the eyes of the (labor) law? Apparently. Was it ethical? NFW.

As for Roach, well I think you know how I feel.

What people don't understand is management, senior management especially (Senior VPs, CFOs, CEOs, Directors, etc) are all under careful scrutiny by the FTC, SEC, and other government organizations. They have to be very careful of what they say and how they say it since people (especially in the investment community) rely on their words and assessment of situations in decision making. Union leadership on the other hand isn't held accountable.

I dunno, I'd like to think the rank and file is very much aware of the fiduciary duty companies have when it comes to disseminating information. But I also think they're aware that Wall St. generally applauds labor peace-whether thats obtained ethically or whether dissent is smothered- and therefore lets a lot of that sort of thing slide.

As for unions, they are accountable. I know you laugh when 700 says this, but it's true- especially when it comes to reporting of finances. I would venture to say that an LM2 is subject to as much scrutiny by the DOL as a 10K filing is by the SEC. I used to help compile the reports for my local lodge. Everything- and I mean everything- has to be accounted for & reported. We also covered all financial details at every meeting, and even the smallest of expenditures had to be voted on/approved. The last local I was in before losing representation took it almost to the point of paranoia. FWIW, I think that's just fine. The books should be open to any stakeholder that's interested.

Bob has posted on this matter extensively, the problem is union officials have become out of touch with the needs and interests of workers today probably because they have enjoyed perks and haven't worked the line in many, many years or decades. Bob is right, the attack on workers has been going on for years and the union leaders didn't bat an eye. Once the unions come under attack and their positions are threatened they act.

Well yeah; why do you think I constantly agitate for bottom up organizing/engagement, and a total revamp of how things work? Lol.

On these sorts of things, we may have different ideas of how to get there, but Bob & I are of the same mind (at least I think so, based on what he writes on here).

 

[700UW]

Labor unions are under more scrutiny than companies ever are.

The LMDRA a union has to report every single penny spent and it available for public records, a company doesnt.

Perfect example back in the late 1990s US had a confidential settlement with Boeing over a canceled aircraft order, yet you couldnt find the information on the 10k anywhere.

A union has to account and make public every penny spent.

 

[southwind]

Funny I been through two chapter 11 cases and our layoff and seniority language was never changed.

And how long have you been gone from DL WT?

And I believe you even had to challenge DL when you were displaced, thats what you posted, yep they have a fair and consistent policy, lol.

I would take Kevin's word over you're word any day, since he is an active DL employee and you are not.

I've worked for DL for 15 years, been through a BK, merger and 2 rifs and I can tell you, what you want written on a piece of paper, is no different than what DL did during all of the above. Seniority rules and half the guys in my shop are from Dallas, who exercised their right to bump to ATL "If" their time could hold it ! Oh and before every rif , there were voluntary furlough packages offered, which is not in any contract that I know of, with 5 year recall rights !

 

[WorldTraveler]

nobody doubts that labor unions have reporting requirements.... but it doesn't change that companies have them as well. And the requirements are different. Companies don't have to document how every penny is spent in public records but companies also are held to much higher standards with respect to market movement - ie they cannot talk to their competitors while labor unions do. The market determines whether companies use their money in the most efficient manner which is why there are outside boards etc. with the government making sure companies adhere to full disclosure of activities that can move investors' perception of the business, protect the employees and environment etc. Unions exist to protect the interests of their members and gain advantages because they have been entrusted w/ other people's money in a representative relationship - not unlike what exists w/ lawmakers. Lawmakers and unions do collaborate with each other.... different laws depending on the role the organization plays in society....

The point of that tangeant would appear to be simply to say that if DL said it converted 800 RRs to FT, they did; there are people who really know whether that occurred and there could be legal implications if that was said and not done.

The subject of who has what information is part of the issue of control. Kev and others want to see more of DL's labor information to be able to hold them accountable to standards which DL didn't agree to or impose. DL made a commitment to its current FT workers. It made no commitment to protecting the middle class or keeping future jobs as FT jobs; it is probably only that basis that the vast majority of DL employees don't hold DL responsible for doing something they never said they would do.ffici

Advancing the cause of the middle class should take place in the political arena on issues that have far more potential to make or break them.... DL is running a business and is using its marketplace freedom to do what is in the best interest of the company and the stockholders, and in the meantime, happens to have a track record of doing a better job of protecting the jobs of its current employees better than any other network airline and is building a stronger financial base that will protect its employees than is any other US airline.

And part of the way DL has been as successful at protecting the jobs of its current employees is by offering early retirement and voluntary severance pacakges which probably have been used to account for 80% or more of the reductions over the past 10 years, even in BK. DL has half of the world's population eligible for its pass benefits now but they have managed to use very little involuntary layoffs to reduce FT staffing levels when it has been necessary.

 

[Kev3188]

I've worked for DL for 15 years, been through a BK, merger and 2 rifs and I can tell you, what you want written on a piece of paper, is no different than what DL did during all of the above. Seniority rules and half the guys in my shop are from Dallas, who exercised their right to bump to ATL "If" their time could hold it ! Oh and before every rif , there were voluntary furlough packages offered, which is not in any contract that I know of, with 5 year recall rights !

Tech Ops' RIF protocol is very different from what ACS has (or doesn't have, actually). Furthermore, any time the mood strikes you, you can see your seniority list- both a master one and one by station and/or department. All it takes is one click from the Tech Ops portal. We cannot. If you have a reason why you think that's okay, feel free to share.

We also had packages offered to those facing furlough, 5 year recall rights, and more. The difference is that those terms couldn't be changed "at any time, for any reason."

Sidebar: For absolutely no real reason, I always find it interesting that while we're basically "tied" seniority-wise (I just started my 16th year)...

nobody doubts that labor unions have reporting requirements.... but it doesn't change that companies have them as well. And the requirements are different. Companies don't have to document how every penny is spent in public records but companies also are held to much higher standards with respect to market movement - ie they cannot talk to their competitors while labor unions do. The market determines whether companies use their money in the most efficient manner which is why there are outside boards etc. with the government making sure companies adhere to full disclosure of activities that can move investors' perception of the business, protect the employees and environment etc. Unions exist to protect the interests of their members and gain advantages because they have been entrusted w/ other people's money in a representative relationship - not unlike what exists w/ lawmakers. Lawmakers and unions do collaborate with each other.... different laws depending on the role the organization plays in society....

Um yeah. That's all already been covered.

The subject of who has what information is part of the issue of control. Kev and others want to see more of DL's labor information to be able to hold them accountable to standards which DL didn't agree to or impose.

Of course they didn't agree, nor will they out of the goodness of their heart. Since that won't occur, it's up to labor to demand accountability; something that will *never* happen using a "direct relationship."

And really; what's so evil about posting transfer/promotion awards? What are they afraid of?

Advancing the cause of the middle class should take place in the political arena on issues that have far more potential to make or break them....

No. There should not be a separation of labor/political/community mobilization. Everyone at DL-with the exception of some in the C-suite- are part of the middle class.

DL is running a business and is using its marketplace freedom to do what is in the best interest of the company and the stockholders

...And the sun will also rise tomorrow...

Of course they're operating in their own (fiscal) best interest. No one expects otherwise. That often runs counter to labor's best interest, which is why power in organized numbers is so critical going forward. That's not something unique to DL.

And part of the way DL has been as successful at protecting the jobs of its current employees is by offering early retirement and voluntary severance pacakges which probably have been used to account for 80% or more of the reductions over the past 10 years, even in BK. DL has half of the world's population eligible for its pass benefits now but they have managed to use very little involuntary layoffs to reduce FT staffing levels when it has been necessary.

Not yet, anyway. Who's to say it isn't coming? After all, you yourself expect the pace to accelerate. Meanwhile, they'll continue to dazzle those left standing with trinkets & hot dog parties, hoping it will get them to ignore what's happening all around them- both on the airfield and off.

 

[robbedagain]

josh its not about obtaining hardship on the junior employee at one station.... if your station is closing and there places where you can hold then go to it but your seniority is not the one that is going to cause hardship its the company for closing that station my 1st station closed in 05 bec the company failed us i went to anthr station where im at now and my seniority has not caused hardship among the other junior people in front of me

 

[WorldTraveler]

Kev,
As someone who really does care about your best interests, I am going to be really honest with you.

The reason why DL has a different RIF policy for ACS and Tech Ops is the same reason why the pilots will get an 8.5% pay raise in January compared with much smaller amounts in other workgroups and also why your dept. continues to see the growth of RRs.
MARKET FORCES

You are doing a job which the company and the market has determined can be done by a less than full-time workforce at pay rates that do not need to grow at the same levels as in other departments.
Pilots cannot be hired on a RR basis; they won’t accept a check for a few months of the year and then walk away to do something else. Mechanics may pick up extra work on a contract basis – DGS – but the vast majority of DL’s mechanics – as long as DL has in-house maintenance – will be FT permanent employees.
There are people willing to do your job on much lower terms and the company does not have to offer the promise of progression to FT employees in your department as long as there are other people willing to do the work for less.
There likely will come a time when your particular job in your particular city will not be available as a full-time job. In other cities, esp. hubs, it will take longer because of the efficiency of their operations and the number of passengers they can move but there will continue to be pressure on certain job classes of employees in the airline industry.
It is market forces why they reveal information to mechanics that they do not reveal to ACS personnel. FT ACS jobs will continue to decline while other areas of the company will be maintained if not grow.
Labor cannot stop market forces from effecting changes in the workforce; there are abundant examples of industries that were once highly unionized in which the number of full-time positions is a fraction of what it once was, regardless of all the efforts of labor unions.
You are far too young to expect that you can hold out for X more years hoping labor can keep you in a job that market forces are pushing against.

You are intelligent. You need to develop a plan that gains you a skillset that will translate into job security and pay progression. If Bob is half right and I think he is, then you could go back and your AMT license and you could probably stay right where you are, make more, and have plenty of opportunities for job security. But the best prospects are probably outside of aviation. In two years, you could probably have an RN license and could follow that with a BS a few years later that will not only give you significant pay progression but also the potential to go into management – where I KNOW you would do well.

What you cannot do is expect to stay in the job you are doing where you are now and be there for the longhaul; it is more likely than not that your job function in your location won’t exist as it is in the future – and the same will be true for many airport jobs elsewhere in the industry.

There are people who are pulling for you…

 

[Kev3188]

The reason why DL has a different RIF policy for ACS and Tech Ops is the same reason why the pilots will get an 8.5% pay raise in January compared with much smaller amounts in other workgroups and also why your dept. continues to see the growth of RRs.
MARKET FORCES

No, it's because they can. And with no counterbalance to those "market forces," there's no reason to think that tide will turn, no matter times you blather on about "DL protecting existing FT jobs."

The pilots are a prime example of getting what you negotiate compared to begging.

It is market forces why they reveal information to mechanics that they do not reveal to ACS personnel. FT ACS jobs will continue to decline while other areas of the company will be maintained if not grow.

Again; which is it? They're declining, or they're protected? You can't have it both ways. DL refusing to reveal something as simple as who-got-what-award-to-where has NOTHING to do with "market forces," and everything to do with maintaining autocracy.

Labor cannot stop market forces from effecting changes in the workforce...

Actually it can. You just refuse to believe that a mobilized populace can do so. The only thing that can overcome large corporate money/messaging is a large group of people.

You are far too young to expect that you can hold out for X more years hoping labor can keep you in a job that market forces are pushing against.

I never rely on hope.

You are intelligent. You need to develop a plan that gains you a skillset that will translate into job security and pay progression. If Bob is half right and I think he is, then you could go back and your AMT license and you could probably stay right where you are, make more, and have plenty of opportunities for job security. But the best prospects are probably outside of aviation. In two years, you could probably have an RN license and could follow that with a BS a few years later that will not only give you significant pay progression but also the potential to go into management – where I KNOW you would do well.

You are under the mistaken impression that people in ACS are under educated, and are helpless waifs who need the benevolent hand of DL to help them through this world. Plenty have formal education, experience in the trades, and so on. Plenty have a plan A/B/C etc., and are prepared for whatever may come. We also have skill sets that DO translate in the outside world, despite the idea that we're all either barely literate simians or automatons that only know how to scan boarding passes.

You cannot continue to simultaneously claim to be pulling for people like me while also advocating for their demise. Most people I know aren't interested in throwing up their hands and walking away; they're interested in making their employer-and society- a better place. So, support labor or don't. You can't have it both ways, no matter how many words you use trying to rationalize it.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm not advocating for your demise, Kevin.
But I am also not blind to the market realities that exist - and that has nothing to do with high well educated people are or not.

DL has done a better job of protecting jobs of existing FT employees and they likely will continue to do so. But by your own reckoning, DL is not replacing vacated FT positions on the ramp w/ anywhere near the rate that is necessary to keep the department from becoming majority RR/PT within a short time, if it hasn't occurred already.

They can still keep their commitment to their EXISTING FT employees on the ramp for many years and allow every FT ramp position to be converted into an RR position.

The likelihood of that happening is highest in small stations and where the potential to handle the most passengers per manhour worked is lower than at hubs where a DL ramp crew can work one mainline aircraft after another.

They do not provide the information you want because they can maintain that control and the majority of your peers do not believe it is worth their while to have it. You and I know both know they continue to reduce the number of FT jobs, although through attrition.

Your choice is to move to a job where your long-term future is more certain or where you can find enough people to stand with you. Regardless of the issue, modern democracies have produced few people who are willing to put their necks on the line. That is the brutal reality and it is far bigger than you and the RR issue.

You cannot find enough people to join you in pushing back because they either don't see what is happening or do not have enough invested to be willing to stick their neck on the line; do the job long enough to get what they need and move on.You want to believe that someone who tells you the truth, even if it is counter to you, is your enemy. I am not your enemy and I very much push and pull for you, but I, you, and the labor unions combined cannot change the economic forces that are pushing more and more airport jobs to part-time/RR across the entire industry.

If you believe otherwise, feel free to provide the evidence. If I were anywhere on the ramp at any airline - but esp. in non-hub cities, I would make sure there is a plan B, C, and D. Not far behind in urgency would be those in customer contact positions... but companies of all types are much more reluctant to give up control of customer-facing positions than they do of non-customer contact positions.

 

[700UW]

WN has done the best job of protecting ft jobs, not DL.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I've never tried to say WN hasn't done a better job... but they don't have 50 more years of legacy costs compared to the legacy/network airlines and WN's business model has largely been built around flying where the network carriers have not.

While WN is a solid airline and will continue to provide exceptional job security for their employees, they recognized they had to start competing in the largest markets w/ network carriers and the results have not been terribly impressive. They moved into DEN using their fuel-hedge gains and have been engaged in a 10 year long battle to knock either UA or F9 out of the market and the result is that DEN is losing money for all 3 of the airlines - lots of it. WN pulled back from their assault on PHL, went after ATL thru the FL acquisition and are dismantling more and more parts of the FL operation. The FL small cities they will keep- even if not served from ATL - as well as new int'l growth will require the same outsourcing and changes to staffing rules that the network carriers have used for years.

So, yes, based on the track record to this point, WN has done a better job than any of the network carriers, DL included. But as WN continues to expand into markets where their previous model does not work, they will have to change their staffing model just as DL did.

Among the network carriers, DL has done the best job of protecting the jobs of its existing employees and reducing headcount using voluntary programs.

That doesn't mean that DL, like WN, won't continue to reduce the number of FT employees.

My statement about having alternate plans still stands, even for WN in their "non-hub" cities.

 

[Kev3188]

WN has done the best job of protecting ft jobs, not DL.

Exactly, and their bottom line (and productivity per employee) has for years shown that a genuine long term investment in your employees is a win-win business model. Employees were well compensated, had stability (rock solid scope), and return delivered for their customers.


As their growth slows, and their workforce grows in seniority, it'll be interesting to see if the new regime there still believes that it's the best route to follow. Kelly is already trying to manage expectations amongst the masses, so we'll see...

That said, even their current CBA still has the best scope going, as it absolutely "protects" existing employees at existing points.

 

[WorldTraveler]

yes, WN has protected its employees better and still is the goal for US airline employees with respect to compensation.

But WN does not serve anywhere near the number of cities that the network/legacy carriers do, even on mainline equipment, and they indeed are having to rework their "employee pact" as they move their strategy to compete in established markets of network carriers - which is exactly what they had to do with ATL, PHL, MSP to round out their route map. They wanted FL for ATL and the slots in the NE but they also had to figure out how to make small cities like GRR and DSM work since those cities clearly can't support the type of minimum of 10 mainline flights per day that WN typically has.

WN will learn from the lessons of other carriers... that is the benefit of being younger.

But the shine won't be near as bright on WN and DL won't look quite as bad relative to WN as DL continues to strengthen its own finances while gaining at the expense of other network and low fare carriers.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

You are under the mistaken impression that people in ACS are under educated, and are helpless waifs who need the benevolent hand of DL to help them through this world. Plenty have formal education, experience in the trades, and so on. Plenty have a plan A/B/C etc., and are prepared for whatever may come. We also have skill sets that DO translate in the outside world, despite the idea that we're all either barely literate simians or automatons that only know how to scan boarding passes.

You cannot continue to simultaneously claim to be pulling for people like me while also advocating for their demise. Most people I know aren't interested in throwing up their hands and walking away; they're interested in making their employer-and society- a better place. So, support labor or don't. You can't have it both ways, no matter how many words you use trying to rationalize it.

IOW Kev. Do not set your sights too high all at once. Once you learn to crawl, then you can work on speech. Maybe a GED, then some community college work. Keep your spirits up Kev, for you may aspire to be as good as those who know what is best for you.

We know you can do it. We are all rooting for you!

Geez.