The unions are coming, the unions are coming!

[North by Northwest]

Oh...I must have misread the AFA Constitution and Policy Manual. I understood it to say that all negotiated contracts must go through the national officers, as it could not advesely affect any other AFA carriers, prior to being presented to the membership. I had also read that Pat Friend was directly involved in the NW negotiations, is this true or false? The AFA Constitution/Policy Manual also stated that AFA President Pat Friend must give one the o.k. before speaking with upper management, is this true?

You are correct in that the are reviewed by the AFA national officers in order to prevent things like "I am willing to work in the event of a legal strike" which is an example of something that "could adversely affect an AFA carrier".

P Friend may have gotten involved during the court battle but she WAS NOT involved in our direct negotiations.

Well I don't know where you got that last part, be kind enough to "cut and paste it" directly from your source please, but I can tell you it sounds ridiculous. As I, and many thousands of other at NW employees have spoken to NW directly on many occasions. Furthermore, "upper management" has been told to their faces many unpleasant opinions as they relate to "their" performance and other issues. Hence, Mr. Stealin travels with body guards.

I can also tell you that P Friend works for NW FAs, we do not work for her, and that is CLEARLY understood by Miss Friend (as I have personally made sure of that fact).

I would love to see that section you speak of.

These are great questions Jake, I hope I can personally answer any and all that you have from my first hand experience. I support AFA (was leery and cautious at first). I do not like "career union leaders" they kinda turn into politicians, thus, I am not a fan of Ms. Friend (although she has done some great work)

The important point to remember is Delta AFA will be elected by Delta people and run by Delta people, with a voice in the AFA National (there is even talk of forming an International Union with SkyTeam members)

 

[JakesWorld]

I agree anything can be negotiated in a contract. My concern is the AFA's Constitution and Policy Manual. There are so many things in them that contradict what AFA says. If the the majority of us vote for AFA than so be it, that is the way it is. I wish we were looking at TWU, IAM, or someone other than AFA. AFA has yet to stand up for any of it F/A's, they always seem to back down at the eleventh hour. The only F/A's that had the balls to say "NO" or walk out were the F/A's at AA, and that could be because you are not AFA, who knows. Also, Delta can keep us on duty no more than 16 hours domestically , ULR international flying would be around the 20 hour range (with 5hr crew rest).

The 7 on 23 off line you are referring to works an all-nighter back with an arrival around 07:00, with that you are actually working into 7 of those 23 days off. I would much rather go out and come right back for a true 7 days. We've been doing transcon turns for 6 plus years at DL and we go out and come right back. There are times where it may hit close to a 16 hour duty day at times, I have yet to get near the 16 hrs. It certainly pays to work 10 days and end up with close to 120 hours though.

 

[North by Northwest]

Jake, I will say this about AFA striking. NW FA were prepared to strike, WITH the support of AFA. We did not strike because of court ordered injuctions.

Moreover, prior to 2001, AFA negotiated the highest pay/benefits in the industry. AFA has done more for quality of life issues in changing the laws than any other Cabin Crew Union in America. I never "blindly" trust ANY Union or company. I believe one must ALWAYS question their elected leaders to make sure they remember who they work for. You never want what happened with NW FA and the Teamsters (our FA Board member playing golf with/cocktail parties/ and god on knows what) Ray Benning (backstabbing Judas) becoming the best friend of John Dasburg and Steenland.

 

[JakesWorld]

You are correct in that the are reviewed by the AFA national officers in order to prevent things like "I am willing to work in the event of a legal strike" which is an example of something that "could adversely affect an AFA carrier".

P Friend may have gotten involved during the court battle but she WAS NOT involved in our direct negotiations.

Well I don't know where you got that last part, be kind enough to "cut and paste it" directly from your source please, but I can tell you it sounds ridiculous. As I, and many thousands of other at NW employees have spoken to NW directly on many occasions. Furthermore, "upper management" has been told to their faces many unpleasant opinions as they relate to "their" performance and other issues. Hence, Mr. Stealin travels with body guards.

I can also tell you that P Friend works for NW FAs, we do not work for her, and that is CLEARLY understood by Miss Friend (as I have personally made sure of that fact).

I would love to see that section you speak of.

SECTION II

UNION COMMUNICATION PROCEDURES

D. AFA-CWA-Wide Communications

It is of the utmost necessity that Union prestige and coordination be maintained in communicating, either orally or in writing, with the general public, the press, the aviation industry, the ATA, and with government agencies. The Union cannot afford to have unauthorized members making indiscriminate statements without first obtaining approval from the International President or the International President's designated representatives. Generally, therefore, communication in the following categories should be processed through the International President.

1. Any communication with an airline relating to any amendment or alteration of an employment agreement.

2. Any communication with the major executive officers of an airline, aircraft manufacturer, governmental agency, etc., on the subject of Union policy, projects or items of overall Union interest.

ARTICLE XII

AGREEMENT APPROVAL VALIDATION　

Agreement Approval Validation

Conferences or negotiations shall not be initiated, carried on, or concluded in the name of the Union by any member, group or groups of members thereof to make or establish employment agreements relating to rates of pay, rules, or other conditions of employment, or any other agreements, contracts or documents of a similar or related character, or any other form of agreements, contracts or documents without prior approval of the Executive Board or the International President. Any and all agreements, contracts or documents of any and every character whatsoever shall not become effective, binding or operative unless and until they bear the signatures of the International President of the Union or other Officer(s) duly authorized so to sign by the Board of Directors or Executive Board.　

North by Northwest, I am reading section 2.D.2 as any communication with upper management regarding a DL contract or inflight/service procedure must be approved by the Intl President before our reps can do anything. Article 7 seems to speak for itself, unless I am misunderstanding it. As I stated earlier if the majority of DL F/A's are in support of AFA then so be it. It seems as though Pat Friend has her hands in too many airlines and DL F/A's would not be truly in control of their contract. Look at the recent Aloha bankruptcy and the effects that Mesa/GO had on Aloha's finances. Aloha F/A's who are represented by AFA could suffer dire consequences due to Mesa's cost structure. Mesa F/A's are also represented by AFA. It is difficult for me to understand how each airline is being fairly represented.

 

[JakesWorld]

Moreover, prior to 2001, AFA negotiated the highest pay/benefits in the industry. AFA has done more for quality of life issues in changing the laws than any other Cabin Crew Union in America.

Wasn't it AA who had the industry leading contract in 2001? Now it is actually Southwest and TWU that have the best in the industry. Quite honestly up until about 4-5 years ago we at Delta were up there too and most considered DL the industry leader...then as history dictated we know how that changed.

 

[North by Northwest]

SECTION II

UNION COMMUNICATION PROCEDURES

D. AFA-CWA-Wide Communications

It is of the utmost necessity that Union prestige and coordination be maintained in communicating, either orally or in writing, with the general public, the press, the aviation industry, the ATA, and with government agencies. The Union cannot afford to have unauthorized members making indiscriminate statements without first obtaining approval from the International President or the International President's designated representatives. Generally, therefore, communication in the following categories should be processed through the International President.

1. Any communication with an airline relating to any amendment or alteration of an employment agreement. (STANDARD BUSINESS PRATICE, as you can not have thousands speaking on behalf of "the union". It does NOT have anything to do with your professional or personal communication to with the company or any other agency)

2. Any communication with the major executive officers of an airline, aircraft manufacturer, governmental agency, etc., on the subject of Union policy, projects or items of overall Union interest. (key words...this applies to UNION business as it affects the Union and not personal communications)

ARTICLE XII

AGREEMENT APPROVAL VALIDATION　

Agreement Approval Validation

Conferences or negotiations shall not be initiated, carried on, or concluded in the name of the Union by any member, group or groups of members thereof to make or establish employment agreements relating to rates of pay, rules, or other conditions of employment, or any other agreements, contracts or documents of a similar or related character, or any other form of agreements, contracts or documents without prior approval of the Executive Board or the International President. Any and all agreements, contracts or documents of any and every character whatsoever shall not become effective, binding or operative unless and until they bear the signatures of the International President of the Union or other Officer(s) duly authorized so to sign by the Board of Directors or Executive Board.　(which may NOT be approved with out the authourization of the RANK and FILE of said AFA carrier.

North by Northwest, I am reading section 2.D.2 as any communication with upper management regarding a DL contract or inflight/service procedure must be approved by the Intl President before our reps can do anything. Article 7 seems to speak for itself, unless I am misunderstanding it. As I stated earlier if the majority of DL F/A's are in support of AFA then so be it. It seems as though Pat Friend has her hands in too many airlines and DL F/A's would not be truly in control of their contract. Look at the recent Aloha bankruptcy and the effects that Mesa/GO had on Aloha's finances. Aloha F/A's who are represented by AFA could suffer dire consequences due to Mesa's cost structure. Mesa F/A's are also represented by AFA. It is difficult for me to understand how each airline is being fairly represented.

I must rephrase this:

This section relates to UNION BUSINESS as it pertains to outside entities...i.e. Union -company business, Union-Federal agencies.

It does not relate to communication outside of direct Union business.
As for the contracts...pound for pound United had the best contract for many years, US wasn't far behind. We are not talking strictly pay, I am talking the whole package, medical (even while out sick), vacation, and retirement.

Mesa Go is directly responsible for it situation because of predatory actions that the court found in Aloha's favor. It is a very complicated situation. AFA can only stand by it's contracts to ensure they are enforced. AFA is in a neutral position. It can not control the actions of airline management.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

If the the majority of us vote for AFA than so be it, that is the way it is. I wish we were looking at TWU, IAM, or someone other than AFA.

I have run into several people in the past few weeks who have stated the same or "I wish we could form our own in-house union."
I totally understand this and have often said the same thing. The difference with me is that I can no longer wait around for a long-shot hypothetical like this to happen. We, unfortunately, have a very apathetic group of FAs here at Delta, particularly in ATL. The TWU failed miserably in 2001/02 and IAM or Teamsters? With the southern belle ATL FAs? You're dreaming.
I believe now is the time to act and perhaps we may have to make some lemonade (OUR AFA contract at DL) out of the lemons (AFA National). But it's better than not having anything to drink at all.

 

[Nor'Easta]

Wasn't it AA who had the industry leading contract in 2001? Now it is actually Southwest and TWU that have the best in the industry. Quite honestly up until about 4-5 years ago we at Delta were up there too and most considered DL the industry leader...then as history dictated we know how that changed.

Yes, in 2001 the APFA negotiated the industry leading contract. We had it until we gave it up in "concessions" in 2003. Now we have the second best contract behind Southwest.

 

[Ch. 12]

Raises to all! Raises to all! Fuel is not at record levels. Fuel prices are not increasing daily. The US economy is going gang-busters. The dollar is at its highest value ever. LCCs are getting more planes delivered than they can place in the market. I can't think of a more intelligent concept right now than trying to get more money.

 

[UAL_TECH]

700 asked me nothing. I answered his rather-generalized 'question' that was made to sound much deeper than it truly was. I answered it though and used communism because THAT is what equal pay and equal treatment at every level is about. All of you that get hyped-up and Birched-up don't even know that Communism is an economic theory as already explained in this thread. Just like Dumbya has created the "Axis of Evil" to divert our attention from what he is doing domestically, Reagan played up Communism as the evil in the 80's. It wasn't the economic theory that was our enemy, though, it was the aggressive military stance of the USSR...that had nothing to do with Communism and everything to do with pride. Communism/Capitalism were simply the flags behind which the armies built up forces.

That being said...I point out Communism (which anyone in their right mind can see is an extremely flawed and failed theory) in my response to 700 b/c his question was Communist. Execs have contracts, why don't I? Execs make 6 figures, why don't I? Don't we live in a free-market Capitalism? If that is the case, then there should be different treatment. And I should not be forced by unions to sign a contract that means that my maximum potential is tied to how many breaths I take rather than the quality of work that I do. How meaningful does that make your job? Why should my wages be capped if I am working twice as hard as the people next to me? Conversely...if I am wasting time at work and being very inefficient in what I do, why should I make as much as the people next to me that are working twice as hard as me? That's not the free market. That's Communism.

The problem with Unions is that they, like Reagan's use of "Communism", have become a rallying cry and the people rallying behind them don't even know that they are rallying for. And yes...it has become extremely emotional b/c the highly vocal members (I say "highly vocal" b/c there are the vast majority of union members that are more practical) can only cry "if so-and-so gets it, then I should too...even if I have a different job, work in a different company, or do 1/4 of the work". All the while, the Unions themselves are raking in the dough from their minions and giving back little. Kind of ironic (moronic?) that those that are speaking out against getting taken advantage of are being taken advantage of by their own unions, eh?

So...I have said time and time again that I DO NOT agree with the level of exec compensation at most companies. I will say that the little link that was provided on exec compensation truly points out why DAL people are not as up-in-arms. And exec SHOULD get paid $300k. They work 7 days a week and 18 hours a day. Not the life for me. DAL's execs are right in line with where I view they should be. UAL? NWA? AMR? You all should be fighting mad and b/c of that I do understand why you go on your parades. But look at the numbers and understand why DAL people do not get as worked up.

Now...how do we fix the executive compensation issue? In an industry that is plagued by high costs and cannot afford to increase them any further, wouldn't it make more sense to put the effort on reducing the disparity through some sort of controls on exec compensation rather than through increasing labor costs across the board? Sure...it would be nice to take home more $$ but it is idiotic to look to do it now. Get Tilton, etc to take home less. Perhaps some form of exec compensation regulation is in order? Of course...it would NEVER happen under Dumbya's watch and then again...aren't we talking Communism with either approach since we would be artifically controlling wages/the economy and not allowing the free market to play out?

See...you're a Communist and didn't even know it. Here you though that a Communist simply built nukes and flew MiGs but in fact that has nothing to do with it. A Communist feels that everybody should get the same treatment...and is driven by the working class.

You are ‘really’ are out there spewing your ignorant crap.

Just because someone supports ‘unionism’ makes them a communist. (United States of America)

The good ole ‘USA’ was comprised of separate states that joined a ‘union’ to create a ‘United States’.

Chit, I thought McCarthy was dead.

You would have been better off to ‘label’ me as a ‘socialist’, which is still not correct but at least it fits in your limited category system..

Yet here we Capitalistic Mericans are spouting Democracy to the World when in fact we are an oligarchy.

Good “GOD†Man, did you even go to school?

B) UT

 

[Nor'Easta]

Raises to all! Raises to all! Fuel is not at record levels. Fuel prices are not increasing daily. The US economy is going gang-busters. The dollar is at its highest value ever. LCCs are getting more planes delivered than they can place in the market. I can't think of a more intelligent concept right now than trying to get more money.

Do you think its OK for Airline Executives to take huge bonuses during these times? :down:

 

[Danny Campbell]

I just wanted to point out one thing here. Currently, the industry-leading contract for FAs is the one at Alaska Airlines (not Southwest). And, as you may know, Alaska is represented by AFA.

Also, I think if you do your research, you will find that IAM, Teamsters, TWU and several other industrial-style unions provide less resources than AFA, because 100% of your dues money is NOT spent on flight attendant representation. For example, when we (NWA) were in the Teamsters, 25 % of our dues went to the International Union and NONE of it was spent on anything that directly helped us as 'flight attendants'. It's even worse in the TWU (where 30% of dues go to the international). Also, we had to hire our own lawyers, accountants, staff, etc... at the local level in the Teamsters. It's not that way in AFA, as the funds we pool together at the International pay for a staff of lawyers and other experts -- all EXCLUSIVELY dedicated to "flight attendant" representation.

Danny Campbell

 

[Danny Campbell]

P.S. I'll give you one example...

When NWA FAs were in the Teamsters, we had a local attorney on retainer for 5,700 per month. She had MANY other clients and we had to work around her schedule and obligations. To the contrary, AFA employs 19 "full-time" in-house lawyers and professional negotiators, who work EXCLUSIVELY for the 21 AFA carriers. And, because AFA lawyers don't have any other clients, they specialize in FLIGHT ATTENDANT contracts and the Railway Labor Act exclusively. That makes all the world of difference in our industry. You will NOT find that in any other union in the country (not APFA, IAM, TWU or the Teamsters).

 

[700UW]

No union spends 100% of their money on representation, look at the AFA LM2, oh and another point the AFA is now part of the CWA(Communications Workers of America) isnt it?

Go read the IAM/CO FA CBA, you will find it the best of the legacy airlines.

PS. I am a 100% Union Supporter.

The IAM has a full time legal staff at IAM HDQs and only uses outside council when necessary.

Lets see I was in bankruptcy court during the last US Airways Bankruptcy and the AFA HAD hired outside council, Dan Katz, who's only client is not the AFA.

Better go check your sources again.

 

[Danny Campbell]

I agree with you that CO has an attractive contract (from a financial standpoint). While they were fortunate to not have to go through bankruptcy over the past few years, they had their fair share of concessions during the 80's.

The IAM has one of the 'highest' % of dues that go to the International Union, which are not earmarked for flight attendant representation. In fact, if I'm not mistaken its something like 40% of dues?

Yes, AFA has hired outside counsel for 'bankruptcy' cases, such as Rob Clayman - but I wasn't referring to specialized areas of the law where it may be necessary for outside counsel - I was referring to day-to-day representation issues, grievance and arbitration handling and similar needs.

You are correct that AFA is part of the broader CWA union, however, our dues are not intermiggled and AFA retains its own Constitution/Bylaws and its own autonomy. The same can't be said for the Teamsters, IAM, TWU or other industrial unions, where the Locals (or Lodges) are entirely subject to the International Constitution of the larger union. I spent many years as a leader in the NWA FAs union - including President, and I know first-hand what it is like to surrender your autonomy to a larger organization, which is why I supported the arrangement between AFA and CWA.