flybynite
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If you're not a west or east pilot maybe you need to set that drink down and go to bed.
US Pilots Labor Thread 6/2-6/9 STAY ON TOPIC
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If you're not a west or east pilot maybe you need to set that drink down and go to bed.
Tiger 1050
Veteran
- Aug 4, 2007
- 882
- 12
Losing steak you say Mr. Cleary? Hmmm. Sorry the links listed below do not work but you can find them at the AOL website. Enjoy.
Cleary And Gang Choose To Bleed On All Of Us
Fellow pilot US Airways Pilots, A recent communication from the USAPA president asked the question “Who’s the winner, and who’s the loser?†regarding the Addington litigation. That letter took great pains to explain what a great job USAPA's legal department has been doing and explain to all that USAPA (and therefore the East) is really somehow the victor. The letter again closed with the same question of “'Who’s the loser?' Make no mistake – we all are.†We agree with that statement, but will amplify that it has been under his leadership that USAPA seems further than ever from its single-purpose date-of-hire goal. It's just not going to happen WE IN THE WEST ARE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE LAW.
Last week the principals of Leonidas were discussing the barrage of mindnumbingly inane chest-thumping coming from various USAPA outlets following the verdict. It was during that conversation that the iconic comedic scene from Monty Python's, “The Holy Grail†entered the discussion and it struck us that we are participating in a real life version of the "The Black Knight" skit. Go back to our update to get the link to Youtube if you haven't seen the skit as it provides the perfect context for what we're seeing from USAPA. The gist is that The Black Knight refuses to let King Arthur pass over a bridge and he threatens the king with death should the king try to pass. Both draw swords and King Arthur slices off one of The Black Knight's arms. Believing The Black Knight will acquiesce, King Arthur asks again to pass to which The Black Knight dismisses the loss of an arm as being nothing more than a scratch and he then continues to fight the king. The Black Knight then loses the other arm and then both legs, but the funny part is that The Black Knight dismisses each loss as being inconsequential. It's crazy, but therein lies the humor. When the Black Knight is near complete dismemberment, he continues to threaten King Arthur to which the king responds, “What are you going to do, bleed on me?†It is obvious that Cleary has made that same choice - to bleed on us all as we sit at the bottom of industry pay scales with no hope of recommencing negotiations. And to remind all of our readers just how bad the bleeding is, we have published a summary of how much money these folks have cost us all in their thus far fruitless effort to eliminate the Nicolau award. As you review these numbers, please remember Stephan's testimony concerning the Kirby proposal plus 8% and the 15% 401k contribution as well as the recent Alaska Airlines contract. Oh, and that contract which Alaska just signed was during one of the most extreme economic conditions in American history.
To be clear, Judge Wake has yet to issue his injunction and we do not know what the remedy will look like, but you can bet that it will offer some real protections for the West; we will not be left bare. In all likelihood it will also seal the fate of USAPA's DOH quest. So, for Cleary to be managing expectations upward even after the glaring loss in federal court is absurd, just as The Black Knight's absurd assertations that losing limbs are inconsequential. If our litigation has been so ineffective, then where is pay-parity, back pay, and an industry leading contract with the West Stapled to the bottom? Answer: it doesn't exist and will not exist as long as the current leadership continues to hold us all hostage under the irrational belief that the Nicolau Arbitration can be ignored. Dream on Cleary, you are not winning this fight and you know it. Repeat the mantra as much as you want to your core supporters - it still won't make it true. Normal, rational people would have to laugh at the statement that “ . . . the only thing that the Addington plaintiffs have accomplished is to return us to the ALPA impasse – again, to the detriment of all pilots, East and West.†No Mike, you and every East leader behind your strategy are and always have been responsible for the “impasse.†You and your like created the impasse, then you and your like created USAPA to break the same impasse you created, and then believed that the circular reasoning justifies discriminating against the minority. And then....you feign indignation when a jury of nine Americans see through your game and hold your union liable for breaching its Duty of Fair Representation. We know you understand the circularity of your reasoning; it's just that you don't want your core to call you on it. You just want them to hold on to the vanishing dream of regaining some of what you gave up over the years and regain it at the complete expense of the West pilots. Earth to Cleary: the real world doesn't buy your shenanigans as it took a jury but two hours to deliberate USAPA's guilt.
Next the Cleary update tries to spread FUD in the West over damages:“With respect to damages, the issue will be determined in a future jury trial unless the court finds no legal basis for seeking such damages. With the court’s encouragement, on Friday, May 22, 2009, USAPA filed a summary judgment motion seeking dismissal of all damages claims on the grounds that there was no causation.†As usual, USAPA offers its conclusions only; underlying premises are conspicuously absent. Also, USAPA conveniently states its side only, so we will bring you up to speed on the damages phase but we will include all of the recent filings for you to check what we say. Also one side note: when a court "encourages" an attorney to act or do something, it isn't because the judge likes someone. Rather, it ususally means that the judge is having to manage the advocacy of the trial to keep the process moving. In other words, rather than be something to brag about, when a judge has to remind a counsel to file something it usually means that someone is dropping the ball. If you have read the trial transcripts and paid particular attention to the sidebar discussions, you will see that the judge's kind reminders were more akin to the admonishment one of the Leonidas principals and his fellow JOs would receive from the XO, LCDR D: "Do your f***ing job!" Obviously a federal judge cannot use such direct language, so instead we hear the gentle reminder, like a mom reminding her child to brush their teeth. The bottom line is that "court encouragement" is not a merit badge, so it is foolish to read too much into that and to accept USAPA's spin on it.
Below are links to all the related filings. Please take the time to read and understand them. Then, reflect on just where we are headed. Enjoy:
· USAPA Motion for Summary Judgment on Damages
· USAPA Memo in support of Motion for Summary Judgment on Damages
· USAPA Statement of Facts for MSJ on Damages
· USAPA's Declaration of Granath for MSJ on Damages
· Plaintiff's Response to USAPA's MSJ on Damages
· Dr. Jacob's Declaration in support of Statement of Facts
· Plaintiff's Statement of Facts for MSJ Damages
· Plaintiff's Exhibits in support of Statement of Facts on MSJ
Lastly, the statement, “. . . the quest for total victory at the expense of one’s fellow pilots has always been a recipe for failure,†could also be found in USAPA's June 2nd update. Thanks for that true bit of wisdom, Mike. We agree and we would like to suggest that you go look in the mirror, take a deep breath and think long and hard about that Monte Python skit. Unfortunately, at this point it looks like you have made the decision for all of us as we continue to bleed. Where's the Triage compartment again?
Sincerely,
Leonidas LLC
Cleary And Gang Choose To Bleed On All Of Us
Fellow pilot US Airways Pilots, A recent communication from the USAPA president asked the question “Who’s the winner, and who’s the loser?†regarding the Addington litigation. That letter took great pains to explain what a great job USAPA's legal department has been doing and explain to all that USAPA (and therefore the East) is really somehow the victor. The letter again closed with the same question of “'Who’s the loser?' Make no mistake – we all are.†We agree with that statement, but will amplify that it has been under his leadership that USAPA seems further than ever from its single-purpose date-of-hire goal. It's just not going to happen WE IN THE WEST ARE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE LAW.
Last week the principals of Leonidas were discussing the barrage of mindnumbingly inane chest-thumping coming from various USAPA outlets following the verdict. It was during that conversation that the iconic comedic scene from Monty Python's, “The Holy Grail†entered the discussion and it struck us that we are participating in a real life version of the "The Black Knight" skit. Go back to our update to get the link to Youtube if you haven't seen the skit as it provides the perfect context for what we're seeing from USAPA. The gist is that The Black Knight refuses to let King Arthur pass over a bridge and he threatens the king with death should the king try to pass. Both draw swords and King Arthur slices off one of The Black Knight's arms. Believing The Black Knight will acquiesce, King Arthur asks again to pass to which The Black Knight dismisses the loss of an arm as being nothing more than a scratch and he then continues to fight the king. The Black Knight then loses the other arm and then both legs, but the funny part is that The Black Knight dismisses each loss as being inconsequential. It's crazy, but therein lies the humor. When the Black Knight is near complete dismemberment, he continues to threaten King Arthur to which the king responds, “What are you going to do, bleed on me?†It is obvious that Cleary has made that same choice - to bleed on us all as we sit at the bottom of industry pay scales with no hope of recommencing negotiations. And to remind all of our readers just how bad the bleeding is, we have published a summary of how much money these folks have cost us all in their thus far fruitless effort to eliminate the Nicolau award. As you review these numbers, please remember Stephan's testimony concerning the Kirby proposal plus 8% and the 15% 401k contribution as well as the recent Alaska Airlines contract. Oh, and that contract which Alaska just signed was during one of the most extreme economic conditions in American history.
To be clear, Judge Wake has yet to issue his injunction and we do not know what the remedy will look like, but you can bet that it will offer some real protections for the West; we will not be left bare. In all likelihood it will also seal the fate of USAPA's DOH quest. So, for Cleary to be managing expectations upward even after the glaring loss in federal court is absurd, just as The Black Knight's absurd assertations that losing limbs are inconsequential. If our litigation has been so ineffective, then where is pay-parity, back pay, and an industry leading contract with the West Stapled to the bottom? Answer: it doesn't exist and will not exist as long as the current leadership continues to hold us all hostage under the irrational belief that the Nicolau Arbitration can be ignored. Dream on Cleary, you are not winning this fight and you know it. Repeat the mantra as much as you want to your core supporters - it still won't make it true. Normal, rational people would have to laugh at the statement that “ . . . the only thing that the Addington plaintiffs have accomplished is to return us to the ALPA impasse – again, to the detriment of all pilots, East and West.†No Mike, you and every East leader behind your strategy are and always have been responsible for the “impasse.†You and your like created the impasse, then you and your like created USAPA to break the same impasse you created, and then believed that the circular reasoning justifies discriminating against the minority. And then....you feign indignation when a jury of nine Americans see through your game and hold your union liable for breaching its Duty of Fair Representation. We know you understand the circularity of your reasoning; it's just that you don't want your core to call you on it. You just want them to hold on to the vanishing dream of regaining some of what you gave up over the years and regain it at the complete expense of the West pilots. Earth to Cleary: the real world doesn't buy your shenanigans as it took a jury but two hours to deliberate USAPA's guilt.
Next the Cleary update tries to spread FUD in the West over damages:“With respect to damages, the issue will be determined in a future jury trial unless the court finds no legal basis for seeking such damages. With the court’s encouragement, on Friday, May 22, 2009, USAPA filed a summary judgment motion seeking dismissal of all damages claims on the grounds that there was no causation.†As usual, USAPA offers its conclusions only; underlying premises are conspicuously absent. Also, USAPA conveniently states its side only, so we will bring you up to speed on the damages phase but we will include all of the recent filings for you to check what we say. Also one side note: when a court "encourages" an attorney to act or do something, it isn't because the judge likes someone. Rather, it ususally means that the judge is having to manage the advocacy of the trial to keep the process moving. In other words, rather than be something to brag about, when a judge has to remind a counsel to file something it usually means that someone is dropping the ball. If you have read the trial transcripts and paid particular attention to the sidebar discussions, you will see that the judge's kind reminders were more akin to the admonishment one of the Leonidas principals and his fellow JOs would receive from the XO, LCDR D: "Do your f***ing job!" Obviously a federal judge cannot use such direct language, so instead we hear the gentle reminder, like a mom reminding her child to brush their teeth. The bottom line is that "court encouragement" is not a merit badge, so it is foolish to read too much into that and to accept USAPA's spin on it.
Below are links to all the related filings. Please take the time to read and understand them. Then, reflect on just where we are headed. Enjoy:
· USAPA Motion for Summary Judgment on Damages
· USAPA Memo in support of Motion for Summary Judgment on Damages
· USAPA Statement of Facts for MSJ on Damages
· USAPA's Declaration of Granath for MSJ on Damages
· Plaintiff's Response to USAPA's MSJ on Damages
· Dr. Jacob's Declaration in support of Statement of Facts
· Plaintiff's Statement of Facts for MSJ Damages
· Plaintiff's Exhibits in support of Statement of Facts on MSJ
Lastly, the statement, “. . . the quest for total victory at the expense of one’s fellow pilots has always been a recipe for failure,†could also be found in USAPA's June 2nd update. Thanks for that true bit of wisdom, Mike. We agree and we would like to suggest that you go look in the mirror, take a deep breath and think long and hard about that Monte Python skit. Unfortunately, at this point it looks like you have made the decision for all of us as we continue to bleed. Where's the Triage compartment again?
Sincerely,
Leonidas LLC
Tiger 1050
Veteran
- Aug 4, 2007
- 882
- 12
I believe you can access this on the front page... No password required.
Try this and click the read more link...
http://www.armyofleonidas.org
Try this and click the read more link...
http://www.armyofleonidas.org
hp_fa
Veteran
- Feb 19, 2004
- 3,290
- 178
Say bye-bye summary judgment. The plaintiffs just exploded that motion because the logic used in their response can all be inferred from the evidence presented to date and that is more than enough to defeat USAPA's motion.
The one question that I do have is who the plaintiffs contend are jointly and severally liable? Did the plaintiffs plead any liability against any other party (with the exception of the Company)?
The one question that I do have is who the plaintiffs contend are jointly and severally liable? Did the plaintiffs plead any liability against any other party (with the exception of the Company)?
sharonstoneseat
Advanced
Jeez, if we must continue to view this business conflict through a theatrical lens can we at least up the metaphors and analogies to something other than a Frank Miller novel and Monty Python.
The flight attendants like the Greek Play Lysistrata. We usually learn something from the classics.
NiceLandingCaptain
Senior
- Jul 22, 2007
- 406
- 0
Tiger 1050
Veteran
- Aug 4, 2007
- 882
- 12
You can always direct your request to the individual websites/entities you wish to change. Here you'll most likely get brushed off or insulted...
:blink: :huh:
sharonstoneseat
Advanced
You can always direct your request to the individual websites/entities you wish to change. Here you'll most likely get brushed off or insulted...
It was an attempt at a different level of humor, nothing more. Not really expecting anything more than the jock response that I got.
But a few may actually look it up rather than watch Black Knight Skit for the 100th time.
You never know.
Tiger 1050
Veteran
- Aug 4, 2007
- 882
- 12
Name calling? Maybe you should give it up more often and do away with the hope for peace. Relax! I was trying to be sincere...
Cleary is so predictable. Keep stoking the anti-west sentiment. Keep making it personal. Keep deferring leadership.
Why did you east guys vote for him?
Why did you east guys vote for him?
hp_fa
Veteran
- Feb 19, 2004
- 3,290
- 178
Maybe because I am an outsider, but before reading the Plaintiffs Response to the Motion for Summary Judgment I never realized that there were as many people who were leaders in East ALPA and are now leaders in USAPA, especially Cleary, Parella & Ciabattoni. I knew that Randy Mowrey had been on the merger committees of both, but that to me was not a significant conflict of interest. However these other folks are significantly conflicted.
One more thing. I was paying attention to the supposed argument that the East MEC was bad and USAPA is good. That argument in now dead-on-arrival. There are way too many joint actors for that argument to now be viable. I had never put all the pieces together until I had read the Plaintiffs' Response.
One more thing. I was paying attention to the supposed argument that the East MEC was bad and USAPA is good. That argument in now dead-on-arrival. There are way too many joint actors for that argument to now be viable. I had never put all the pieces together until I had read the Plaintiffs' Response.
JetBlue payrates, given by management from the "goodness of their heart". And with no help from USAirways pay scales and USAPA that enables them.
E190 F/O
1st year - 47.00
2nd year - 61.69
3rd year - 72.67
4th year - 78.76
12th year - 97.12
E190 CA
1st year - 124.32
2nd year - 125.90
3rd year - 127.49
4th year - 129.11
12th year - 142.83
A320 F/O
1st year - 47.00
2nd year - 68.54
3rd year - 80.75
4th year - 87.51
12th year - 107.92
A320 CA
1st year - 138.13
2nd year - 139.88
3rd year - 141.66
4th year - 143.46
12th year - 158.70
Yet USAPA can't get past fighting it's civil war to build the legitimacy and credibility necessary to negotiate a contract.
Nope, seniority isn't for sale. Cleary's fighting for you!
Right?
(PS- I hope no 330 captains are upset by the 190 rate)
E190 F/O
1st year - 47.00
2nd year - 61.69
3rd year - 72.67
4th year - 78.76
12th year - 97.12
E190 CA
1st year - 124.32
2nd year - 125.90
3rd year - 127.49
4th year - 129.11
12th year - 142.83
A320 F/O
1st year - 47.00
2nd year - 68.54
3rd year - 80.75
4th year - 87.51
12th year - 107.92
A320 CA
1st year - 138.13
2nd year - 139.88
3rd year - 141.66
4th year - 143.46
12th year - 158.70
Yet USAPA can't get past fighting it's civil war to build the legitimacy and credibility necessary to negotiate a contract.
Nope, seniority isn't for sale. Cleary's fighting for you!
Right?
(PS- I hope no 330 captains are upset by the 190 rate)
sharonstoneseat
Advanced
Didn't name call, used it as a descriptive adjective.
You may be a jock too however the jock response I was referring to was NLC's, not yours. Sorry that wasn't clear.
You know the premise of the play. Qualifies you as open-minded well-read jock. the actual Greek ideal.
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