2015 Pilot Discussion.

[im back..!!]

Thanks,
That Fiat commercial provided the material for a nice break from the normal routine around here. 😉

Two thumbs up for the break from the norm...

 

[im back..!!]

Thoughts***

I just watched a show about Genius's of the past. The story line was the competition between the Wright brothers and Glenn Curtis over patent infringement. The Wrights wanted to stifle any alteration of flying machines, Curtis wanted to alter and experiment, it also got into the royalties the Wrights wanted. Prohibitive to an upstart such as Curtis. Thus they ended up in court. And that is where this thought is going....

Wilbur Wright devoted his full time to the lawsuits and legal issues up to the point that he fell ill and died, at 45. They attributed his death to the strain emotionally and physically from the total devotion to the litigation.
His brother then spent all his time seeking retribution for his brothers death, blaming Glenn Curtis and others. Orvil ended up dropping out of the industry that he helped spawn.
Glenn Curtis went on to prosper handsomely. After the litigation ended.

My point isn't to, and I wouldn't attempt to, cast who would be who, visa a vis the Wrights vs Glenn Curtis, and the East vs the West.... My point would be, hopefully we can finally get some closure to this paradigm in the coming months. And regardless of the out come, we legally must accept it.

Hopefully we also can realize the fruitlesness of continued anguish over the outcome.

May we all get what we deserve, and then get on with being ourselves, and not grind ourselves up. My best to all... "Here's to your health"....

 

[cactusboy53]

Please, would everyone at least familiarize yourselves with "McCaskill-Bond".
THERE IS NO OPTION TO NOT ACCEPT THE OUTCOME OF THE ARBITRATION.!
So, please stop askin, your makin it seem to everyone that you don't understand what your asking... It's embarrassing...
(This isn't an inhouse dispute, it's real arbitration) ok?

Please, would everyone at least familiarize yourselves with "McCaskill-Bond".
THERE IS NO OPTION TO NOT ACCEPT THE OUTCOME OF THE ARBITRATION.!
So, please stop askin, your makin it seem to everyone that you don't understand what your asking... It's embarrassing...
(This isn't an inhouse dispute, it's real arbitration) ok?

If YOU read the M/B, you would know that it is quite nearly verbatim of the ALPA merger policy. The difference is it is a product of the merger between AA & TWA thus protecting a SMALLER labor group from a LARGER group by making the arbitration really FINAL & BINDING (making it federally final & binding).

Ironic, don't you think? Those of us asking are doing so based on US Air pilot's HISTORICAL treatment of final & binding arbitration. Not embarrassing for those that ask at all. We just want to make sure you understand your commitment to this process.

Dave

 

[cactusboy53]

Thoughts***
I just watched a show about Genius's of the past. The story line was the competition between the Wright brothers and Glenn Curtis over patent infringement. The Wrights wanted to stifle any alteration of flying machines, Curtis wanted to alter and experiment, it also got into the royalties the Wrights wanted. Prohibitive to an upstart such as Curtis. Thus they ended up in court. And that is where this thought is going....
Wilbur Wright devoted his full time to the lawsuits and legal issues up to the point that he fell ill and died, at 45. They attributed his death to the strain emotionally and physically from the total devotion to the litigation.
His brother then spent all his time seeking retribution for his brothers death, blaming Glenn Curtis and others. Orvil ended up dropping out of the industry that he helped spawn.
Glenn Curtis went on to prosper handsomely. After the litigation ended.
My point isn't to, and I wouldn't attempt to, cast who would be who, visa a vis the Wrights vs Glenn Curtis, and the East vs the West.... My point would be, hopefully we can finally get some closure to this paradigm in the coming months. And regardless of the out come, we legally must accept it.
Hopefully we also can realize the fruitlesness of continued anguish over the outcome.
May we all get what we deserve, and then get on with being ourselves, and not grind ourselves up. My best to all... "Here's to your health"....

The necessity of defending ourselves against the Date of Hire scheme is what has caused this event. Sad, but necessary.

Failing to understand this for what it started out as makes that party obtuse or an out right liar.

 

[cactusboy53]

so have we.

But you've done EVERYTHING in your power to evade/delay the product of the event that we all agreed to. Pretty simple stuff.

 

[Phoenix]

If YOU read the M/B, you would know that it is quite nearly verbatim of the ALPA merger policy. The difference is it is a product of the merger between AA & TWA thus protecting a SMALLER labor group from a LARGER group by making the arbitration really FINAL & BINDING (making it federally final & binding).
Ironic, don't you think? Those of us asking are doing so based on US Air pilot's HISTORICAL treatment of final & binding arbitration. Not embarrassing for those that ask at all. We just want to make sure you understand your commitment to this process.
Dave

"understand your commitment to this process."....

You still don't get it. It isn't about "history" or "commitment", it's about obligation. Your commitment to select portions of the 2005 TA were beach slapped by multiple court orders pursuant to your obligations under the whole TA.

Anyone who commits themselves to their personal dreams, vendettas, and interpretations of MB will be beach slapped into reality.

 

[cactusboy53]

"understand your commitment to this process."....

You still don't get it. It isn't about "history" or "commitment", it's about obligation. Your commitment to select portions of the 2005 TA were beach slapped by multiple court orders pursuant to your obligations under the whole TA.

Anyone who commits themselves to their personal dreams, vendettas, and interpretations of MB will be beach slapped into reality.

Keep clickin' them heels, Dorothy.  The arbitration panel can deliver ANYTHING they deem FAIR & EQUITABLE.  Pretty SIMPLE STUFF.  I think Mikey and his crew said it best:
 
[SIZE=12pt]“…The Arbitration Board conducts an evidentiary hearing, with witnesses, evidence and a stenographic transcript. The Board’s Opinion and Award are to be issued simultaneously, within 150 days following the PID, unless both pilot groups and ALPA’s President agree to an extension. The Merger Policy provides, “The Award of the Arbitration Board shall be final and binding on all parties to the arbitration and shall be defended by ALPA.” No ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside by the courts although some dissatisfied pilots have challenged the award before administrative agencies and the courts.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]US Airwaves June/July 2000[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]US Air Merger Committee Members: Todd Cardoza (PIT), Mike Cleary (BOS),Randy Mowery (PIT)[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Does it matter if you changed your name and instilled an new constitution that is done so for the express purpose of evading your commitment?  Does it matter that you walked away from contract negotiations for the purpose of sabotaging the JCBA, and thus the installment of the Nicolau Award?  I guess we'll just let the arbitrators make the determination.[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Everyone gets it.  Arbitrator got it when he questioned Jess Pauley.  VP Paul Jones of our company gets it:[/SIZE]
 
 
[SIZE=12pt]“Actually, it is USAPA that is needlessly delaying the resolution of the seniority dispute and jeopardizing the enforceability of the agreement the parties are able to reach. …….The arbitrator’s decision was to be final and binding on both pilot groups and was to be accepted by the Company so long as certain conditions were met.  The Nicolau Award has resulted in four years of litigation including a trial in federal court and jury verdict fining USAPA’s proposal for a non-Nicolau list to constitute an unlawful breach of the union’s duty of fair representation….”[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=12pt]Paul D. Jones; Vice President – Legal Affairs and Chief Compliance Officer[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Exhibit 1 of  Declaration of Counsel; Case 13-15000, 02/20/2013[/SIZE]


 

 

[Phoenix]

Keep clickin' them heels, Dorothy.  The arbitration panel can deliver ANYTHING they deem FAIR & EQUITABLE.  Pretty SIMPLE STUFF.  I think Mikey and his crew said it best:
 
The Arbitration Board conducts an evidentiary hearing, with witnesses, evidence and a stenographic transcript. The Boards Opinion and Award are to be issued simultaneously, within 150 days following the PID, unless both pilot groups and ALPAs President agree to an extension. The Merger Policy provides, The Award of the Arbitration Board shall be final and binding on all parties to the arbitration and shall be defended by ALPA. No ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside by the courts although some dissatisfied pilots have challenged the award before administrative agencies and the courts.
US Airwaves June/July 2000
US Air Merger Committee Members: Todd Cardoza (PIT), Mike Cleary (BOS),Randy Mowery (PIT)
 
Does it matter if you changed your name and instilled an new constitution that is done so for the express purpose of evading your commitment?  Does it matter that you walked away from contract negotiations for the purpose of sabotaging the JCBA, and thus the installment of the Nicolau Award?  I guess we'll just let the arbitrators make the determination.
 
Everyone gets it.  Arbitrator got it when he questioned Jess Pauley.  VP Paul Jones of our company gets it:
 
 
Actually, it is USAPA that is needlessly delaying the resolution of the seniority dispute and jeopardizing the enforceability of the agreement the parties are able to reach. .The arbitrators decision was to be final and binding on both pilot groups and was to be accepted by the Company so long as certain conditions were met.  The Nicolau Award has resulted in four years of litigation including a trial in federal court and jury verdict fining USAPAs proposal for a non-Nicolau list to constitute an unlawful breach of the unions duty of fair representation.
 
Paul D. Jones; Vice President Legal Affairs and Chief Compliance Officer

Exhibit 1 of  Declaration of Counsel; Case 13-15000, 02/20/2013

Relax.

It will be fair and equitable this time. Or is that what has you in a tizzy?

 

[luvthe9]

10 The court in Addington noted that “[a]dditionally, USAPA's final proposal may yet be one that does not work
the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if that proposal is not the Nicolau Award,” and thus the implementation of a
CBA that does not include the Arbitration Board’s merged list would not necessarily be a breach of USAPA’s DFR.
2010 WL 2220058 at *5.


They claim that the Supreme Court would reverse because, “this case will encourage other unions to refuse, in bad faith, to implement an arbitrated seniority integration” (DktEntry 52 at 1-2), when this Court has already found the Nicolau arbitration was merely “the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA.” Addington, 606 F.3d 1174, at *15, n.3. But there is no arbitration that USAPA was ever a party to anywhere in this record. And the district court properly dismissed (and plaintiffs did not appeal) the removed state claim, which asserted the pilots themselves were a party. There not only is no ‘federally mandated’ arbitration, there is no arbitration at all, merely a predecessor union’s bargaining proposal.

 

[luvthe9]

Case 2:13-cv-00471-ROS Document 298 Filed 01/10/14 Page 10 of 22

Turning to the present case, the West Pilots claim USAPA breached its duty of fair
representation by “abandoning the existing obligation to use the Nicolau Award.” (Doc. 267
at 11). For present purposes, the Court will assume such an obligation existed. Therefore,
the question is whether USAPA had a legitimate union purpose for that abandonment. As
mentioned earlier, this would be an easier inquiry if USAPA had abandoned the Nicolau
Award in favor of a different seniority regime. The Court could then compare the Nicolau
Award to the new seniority regime and evaluate USAPA’s reasons for adopting the new
regime. But the complicated state of affairs means that, at present, there is no new seniority
regime directly comparable to the Nicolau Award. And, in fact, there never will be. The
merger with American Airlines, combined with the terms of the MOU, means a new seniority
regime will exist only after the McCaskill-Bond process is complete. That new seniority
regime will include the thousands of pilots from American Airlines and it will be difficult to
compare that regime to the Nicolau Award. Thus, the only question the Court can answer

 

[EastUS1]

Some people think if they steal within the confines of the legal system it won't be recognized as theft . 

 
Be fair jake. We're not talking about the Clinton "Foundation" or any aspects of government here. 😉 Huge differences here aside; I suspect we'd find some agreement in at least that area.
 
Per "theft" though?....ANYONE who could even conceivably imagine that protecting their junior fellows against wholesale and actual theft of as much as even 17 years of their worked lives, by some sad and sorry little band of self-styled "spartan" punks, as being in ANY way "theft" is purely delusional.

 

[EastUS1]

The necessity of defending ourselves against the Date of Hire scheme is what has caused this event. ...

 
English translation: The cruel thought of ever actually having to EARN whatever life grants "you'se" would naturally prove entirely anathematic to the core nature of your true personal "character", and thus it all began.
 
"defending ourselves against the Date of Hire" amounts to nothing more than proving yourselves purely opportunistic little twits that'd cheerfully back stab/lie-cheat-steal/whatever against your supposed "fellow pilots" at every opportunity that's ever afforded you to do so....Period. 
 
Perhaps you would be kind enough to post your own DOH here (as well as that of the east pilot that Nic would've placed immediately below you of course) for a clearer perspective and ready reference as to the truly "honorable" nature of your quest?
 
At least a short paragraph as to why YOU would, even conceivably, be of course personally "worthy" to take that position would naturally help in establishing your "righteousness" here...? 😉

 

[nevergiveup]

But you've done EVERYTHING in your power to evade/delay the product of the event that we all agreed to. Pretty simple stuff.

anything wrong with exercising one's legal options? Why would one want to give away his or her career in exchange for a sub- standard contract? Hope the 2018 equipment bid goes well for you!

 

[bob@las-AA]

#

 

[EastUS1]

 
I doubt it.
 
I pretty confident and don't need to make a lot of noise about challenges....

 
Indeed. So very clearly "confident" that you yet feel some strange, perverse need to somehow "brag" about declining challenges? Thanks for the Joke of the Day kid.