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2015 Pilot Discussion.

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CAVOK said:
Which captains lost their seats? On the F28 where they were upgrading in 3 years? Pilots from both airlines with hire dates of '83, '84, '85 where updating in '88 to '89, (five years to the NB captain seat) so if they lost their seats it was would not have been for very long. They didn't want to commute? I would would have to hear from other Piedmont pilots, other than yourself. Both airlines were upgrading. 
 
ALPA merger policy changed away from DOH, as I remember, as a result from United pressure due to an impending merger with US Airways in 1998. United was less senior. That was when I knew that we had to get out of ALPA. ALPAs surrender of our contract through LOAs and our funded pension given to the PBGC cemented that belief. 
 
It has always been about DOH for most of us and all other unions in the industry.
DOH?

I hear that you had to use something called a phone booth in the 80's too. :lol:

http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/remembering-the-1980s-hold-on-was-it-really-like-that/
 
Leonidas - UPDATE
June 12, 2015

West Merger Committee Update

We have three items to update you about this evening.
THE LMRDA DUES DISGORGEMENT CASE
USAPA is presently making the unbelievable claim in federal court that it still holds representational responsibilities on behalf of the America West pilots, including for purposes seniority integration. USAPA is taking this position despite the Preliminary Arbitration decision, and also despite the fact that USAPA is no longer a certified bargaining agent. It is therefore imperative that all America West pilots immediately review the most recent update from Leonidas LLC and take the action recommended therein:
www.cactuspilot.com
The ability to successfully fund your merger committee is affected by this litigation. We need all America West pilots to send an email to USAPA as described in the Leonidas update. Please also contact other America West pilots you know and ensure that they too have taken the recommended action.
PUBLICATION OF SENIORITY PROPOSALS
One week from today, Friday, June 19, the three merger committees will exchange the following information with one another:
1. Pre-hearing Statements of Position, including proposed seniority list integration methodology, and proposed integrated seniority list with accompanying Conditions and Restrictions.
2. Lists of proposed witnesses for the Parties' cases in chief.
3. Proposed Exhibits for Witnesses the Parties' intend to call in their cases in chief.
This information will also be posted at the following web locations:
http://www.west-merger-committee.com
https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/Home/SeniorityIntegration.aspx
During the arbitration hearings, these websites will also contain the daily hearing transcripts in addition to all exhibits and written submissions used in the hearings.
THE SENIORITY ARBITRATION HEARINGS
Your merger committee representatives have been working closely with our legal team, experts, and analysts over the past few weeks in order to finalize our pre-hearing brief and proposal for submission and publication. With arbitration hearings scheduled to commence just over two weeks from now, your merger team is now engaged full-time in making final preparations for the arbitration hearings.
To set the proper stage for the unveiling of the proposals, we thought it might be helpful to highlight the following paragraph from the United pilots closing brief to the arbitration panel in the UAL / CAL case. This paragraph, drafted by our lead merger counsel Jeff Freund, was incorporated verbatim by the panel of arbitrators in the UAL / CAL award, and its advice was followed throughout the award. Our proposal will certainly comport to this admonition, and we expect that the other committees proposals will as well.
"Airline mergers and the attendant pilot seniority integrations have proven to be the most stressful periods in an airline's evolution. That stress manifests itself in a variety of ways that pose serious problems for the respective pilot groups and for ALPA as an institution. The expectations that competing integration proposals create in the minds of the merging pilot groups and the hostility engendered by these competing proposals leave scars that do not heal well, if at all. . . . While there are surely many explanations for the tumult created by the SLI process, the leading culprit is the unrealistic expectations of many of the pilot groups. In our experience, those unrealistic expectations translate into extreme SLI proposals, and those extreme proposals are what allows the rhetoric and the animosity that flows from the fight over a scarce resource a position on a combined seniority list to spiral out of control. . . When an Award fails to call out the fact that one side has made an entirely unreasonable proposal . . . that encourages, or fails to discourage, continuing unreasonable proposals; it also encourages the very conduct that inflames the SLI process and leads to the bitter recrimination that haunts the merged pilot group and ALPA for decades after. . . [W]e urge in the strongest terms that [this Board] say so in its opinion, so that future merger committees will take this Board's admonitions to heart and the damaging consequences of unreasonable posturing will be eliminated or at least minimized in future mergers.
As previously announced, the arbitration hearings dates are scheduled as follows: June 29-July 3, July 13-16, September 29-October 2, and October 12-16, 2015. Arbitration hearings for the weeks of June 29-July 3 and July 13-16 will be held at the Grand Hyatt Hotel, 1000 H Street NW, Washington, D.C., USA, 20001. The hearings will generally be open and pilots will be allowed to observe the hearings as space allows. Portions of the hearing however containing information and data subject to confidentiality agreements and restrictions may be closed to observers. The hearings in September and October will also be held in the Washington, D.C. area at a location to be determined.
The hearings will begin on June 29 with opening statements from each party; the East committee to go first, followed by the West committee, and then the AA committee. Following opening statements, the parties will put on their cases-in-chief, known as direct cases, in this same order. Direct cases involve each committee introducing evidence to the arbitration panel by means of witnesses and exhibits. The evidence is generally designed to support that committees integration proposal, and each witness is subject to cross-examination by the other committees' attorneys. The direct cases are expected to last through July 16.
Following the direct cases, each committee will have the opportunity to present a rebuttal case. In the rebuttal, each committee will have the opportunity to introduce additional witnesses and evidence to respond to evidence and arguments that the other committees presented in their direct cases. The rebuttal cases will not begin until September 29.
Thank you for your continued support.
Sincerely,
The West Merger Committee
 
"USAPA is presently making the unbelievable claim in federal court that it still holds representational responsibilities on behalf of the America West pilots, including for purposes seniority integration. USAPA is taking this position despite the Preliminary Arbitration decision, and also despite the fact that USAPA is no longer a certified bargaining agent."

No problem, let's ask the court to have Leonidas LLC represent East pilots. It works for decertified unions who enjoy LLC status. USAPA LLC seems to think they can do the APA's job. To heck with unionism. Let's have LLCism 😉
 
traderjake said:
Yes, the DOH merger where Piedmont Captains lost their seats to guys who couldn't hold Captain at USAir. 
 
That's why there hasn't been a DOH merger this century.
WRONG.... Kagel award, I was a captain before the merger (Piedmont Captain) and Kagel wrote Conditions and Restrictions (wow, imagine that) that protected my captains bid.

The Arb couldn't foretell the future (he isn't Nostradamus) so he couldn't know usair would reduce my equipment in clt, but I was able to displace with protections into a captains bid in pit.

Your dad didn't want to commute (his choice, many feel the same way) if you wouldn't chase the time you could loose your bid, could have happened with any merger and any list composition, hell it could have happened with out the merger.... What if Piedmont had not merged but opened a base in Pit?

Just saying, DOH with Conditions and restrictions works perfectly.... Your just spreading FUD.
 
im back..!! said:
WRONG.... Kagel award, I was a captain before the merger (Piedmont Captain) and Kagel wrote Conditions and Restrictions (wow, imagine that) that protected my captains bid.

The Arb couldn't foretell the future (he isn't Nostradamus) so he couldn't know usair would reduce my equipment in clt, but I was able to displace with protections into a captains bid in pit. 
 
I'm right, you're wrong.
 
Piedmont Captains did lose the seats to USAir F/Os.
 
You can make any excuse for why you want but that's what happened. 
 
snapthis said:
Leonidas - UPDATE
June 12, 2015

West Merger Committee Update

We have three items to update you about this evening.
THE LMRDA DUES DISGORGEMENT CASE
USAPA is presently making the unbelievable claim in federal court that it still holds representational responsibilities on behalf of the America West pilots, including for purposes seniority integration. USAPA is taking this position despite the Preliminary Arbitration decision, and also despite the fact that USAPA is no longer a certified bargaining agent. It is therefore imperative that all America West pilots immediately review the most recent update from Leonidas LLC and take the action recommended therein:
www.cactuspilot.com
The ability to successfully fund your merger committee is affected by this litigation. We need all America West pilots to send an email to USAPA as described in the Leonidas update. Please also contact other America West pilots you know and ensure that they too have taken the recommended action.
PUBLICATION OF SENIORITY PROPOSALS
One week from today, Friday, June 19, the three merger committees will exchange the following information with one another:
1. Pre-hearing Statements of Position, including proposed seniority list integration methodology, and proposed integrated seniority list with accompanying Conditions and Restrictions.
2. Lists of proposed witnesses for the Parties' cases in chief.
3. Proposed Exhibits for Witnesses the Parties' intend to call in their cases in chief.
This information will also be posted at the following web locations:
http://www.west-merger-committee.com
https://public.alliedpilots.org/apa/Home/SeniorityIntegration.aspx
During the arbitration hearings, these websites will also contain the daily hearing transcripts in addition to all exhibits and written submissions used in the hearings.
THE SENIORITY ARBITRATION HEARINGS
Your merger committee representatives have been working closely with our legal team, experts, and analysts over the past few weeks in order to finalize our pre-hearing brief and proposal for submission and publication. With arbitration hearings scheduled to commence just over two weeks from now, your merger team is now engaged full-time in making final preparations for the arbitration hearings.
To set the proper stage for the unveiling of the proposals, we thought it might be helpful to highlight the following paragraph from the United pilots closing brief to the arbitration panel in the UAL / CAL case. This paragraph, drafted by our lead merger counsel Jeff Freund, was incorporated verbatim by the panel of arbitrators in the UAL / CAL award, and its advice was followed throughout the award. Our proposal will certainly comport to this admonition, and we expect that the other committees proposals will as well.
"Airline mergers and the attendant pilot seniority integrations have proven to be the most stressful periods in an airline's evolution. That stress manifests itself in a variety of ways that pose serious problems for the respective pilot groups and for ALPA as an institution. The expectations that competing integration proposals create in the minds of the merging pilot groups and the hostility engendered by these competing proposals leave scars that do not heal well, if at all. . . . While there are surely many explanations for the tumult created by the SLI process, the leading culprit is the unrealistic expectations of many of the pilot groups. In our experience, those unrealistic expectations translate into extreme SLI proposals, and those extreme proposals are what allows the rhetoric and the animosity that flows from the fight over a scarce resource a position on a combined seniority list to spiral out of control. . . When an Award fails to call out the fact that one side has made an entirely unreasonable proposal . . . that encourages, or fails to discourage, continuing unreasonable proposals; it also encourages the very conduct that inflames the SLI process and leads to the bitter recrimination that haunts the merged pilot group and ALPA for decades after. . . [W]e urge in the strongest terms that [this Board] say so in its opinion, so that future merger committees will take this Board's admonitions to heart and the damaging consequences of unreasonable posturing will be eliminated or at least minimized in future mergers.
As previously announced, the arbitration hearings dates are scheduled as follows: June 29-July 3, July 13-16, September 29-October 2, and October 12-16, 2015. Arbitration hearings for the weeks of June 29-July 3 and July 13-16 will be held at the Grand Hyatt Hotel, 1000 H Street NW, Washington, D.C., USA, 20001. The hearings will generally be open and pilots will be allowed to observe the hearings as space allows. Portions of the hearing however containing information and data subject to confidentiality agreements and restrictions may be closed to observers. The hearings in September and October will also be held in the Washington, D.C. area at a location to be determined.
The hearings will begin on June 29 with opening statements from each party; the East committee to go first, followed by the West committee, and then the AA committee. Following opening statements, the parties will put on their cases-in-chief, known as direct cases, in this same order. Direct cases involve each committee introducing evidence to the arbitration panel by means of witnesses and exhibits. The evidence is generally designed to support that committees integration proposal, and each witness is subject to cross-examination by the other committees' attorneys. The direct cases are expected to last through July 16.
Following the direct cases, each committee will have the opportunity to present a rebuttal case. In the rebuttal, each committee will have the opportunity to introduce additional witnesses and evidence to respond to evidence and arguments that the other committees presented in their direct cases. The rebuttal cases will not begin until September 29.
Thank you for your continued support.
Sincerely,
The West Merger Committee
 
Those East Coast losers need to butt out of our business.
 
snapthis said:
Leonidas - UPDATE
June 12, 2015

West Merger Committee Update

We have three items to update you about this evening.
THE LMRDA DUES DISGORGEMENT CASE
USAPA is presently making the unbelievable claim in federal court that it still holds representational responsibilities on behalf of the America West pilots, including for purposes seniority integration. USAPA is taking this position despite the Preliminary Arbitration decision, and also despite the fact that USAPA is no longer a certified bargaining agent. It is therefore imperative that all America West pilots immediately review the most recent update from Leonidas LLC and take the action recommended therein:
 
"Of course, USAPA wishes the issue to center on the West Pilots “right” to
be part of the SLI process because it believes that the West Pilots do not have
such an independent right. This is exactly what the court said in Addington III;
that only the certified and exclusive bargaining representative has the right
to
appoint Merger Committees to participate in the SLI process.
Based on the court’s decision in Addington III, one could argue that the West Pilots do not have an independent right to take part in the SLI process. The Preliminary Arbitration Board takes no position with respect to this particular matter, as it is currently being appealed to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals."
 
"The West Pilots deny that the issue before the Board is whether or not
West Pilots have an independent legal right to participate in the SLI proceedings.

Any attempt to reframe the issue in this manner should be dismissed by the
Board, the West Pilots insist. Whether the West Pilots have a separate and
independent legal right to engage in SLI negotiations and arbitration is irrelevant,.
.......
 
http://nebula.wsimg....0&alloworigin=1
 
Claxon said:
"Of course, USAPA wishes the issue to center on the West Pilots “right” to
be part of the SLI process because it believes that the West Pilots do not have
such an independent right. This is exactly what the court said in Addington III;
that only the certified and exclusive bargaining representative has the right
to
appoint Merger Committees to participate in the SLI process.
Based on the court’s decision in Addington III, one could argue that the West Pilots do not have an independent right to take part in the SLI process. The Preliminary Arbitration Board takes no position with respect to this particular matter, as it is currently being appealed to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals."
 
"The West Pilots deny that the issue before the Board is whether or not
West Pilots have an independent legal right to participate in the SLI proceedings.

Any attempt to reframe the issue in this manner should be dismissed by the
Board, the West Pilots insist. Whether the West Pilots have a separate and
independent legal right to engage in SLI negotiations and arbitration is irrelevant,.
.......
 
http://nebula.wsimg....0&alloworigin=1
 
I guess you are trying to reach your target audience. Those who need a magnifying glass to read a billboard. 😉
 
 
 
Ultimately, the parties executed a Protocol Agreement on September 4,
2014, in which they agreed to dismiss all claims and counterclaims in the District
of Columbia lawsuit. The parties agreed in Paragraph 8 of the Protocol
Agreement that the issue in contention should be presented to a Preliminary
Arbitration Board for consideration, as follows:
8a. Effective if and when the NMB certifies APA as the representative of
the combined craft and class, the Merger Committees established by APA
and USAPA shall continue in existence, solely for the purpose of
concluding an integrated pilot seniority list pursuant to the MOU; provided,
that all parties reserve their rights
and/or positions with respect to the
establishment of a separate Merger Committee to represent the interests
of the pilots on the US Airways (West) seniority list referenced in
paragraph 2(b) including, without limitation, APA‘s position that, following
certification by the NMB as the single bargaining unit representative, it will
have the discretion to designate such a committee, and USAPA’s position
that APA will have no such legal authority…
 
EastCheats said:
 
I guess you are trying to reach your target audience. Those who need a magnifying glass to read a billboard. 😉
 
Your are flopping around, out of the water on shore, with your gills working overtime searching for water saturated 02.
 
Claxon said:
Your are flopping around, out of the water on shore, with your gills working overtime searching for water saturated 02.
Your are....hmmm

Would that be you are? Or you're?

At least the hiring standards were consistent. 😉
 
EastCheats said:
 
How are those pyrrhic retirement benefits after years of LOA 93 and that pension guarantee that had no guarantee. AWE....
 
I guess you will find out soon.
 
Well, although my PBGC benefits pale in comparison to what I was "promised," at least I have PBGC benefits coming to me, in addition to SS and a handsome 401K.
 
What will you do with your PBGC?  Oh, that's right.....  
 
Working for America's Worst Airline earned you no pension at all, and you weak di*ks never had the cojones to get a pension in the first place.   That's why the westicles have always been, and continue to be, the laughing stock of the industry.  Big talk with no basis in reality (as proof, cross-reference all those incredibly stupid videos made over the years.)
 
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