2015 Pilot Discussion.

[Phoenix]

Is it frustrating when the courts and arbitrators don't give into your demands and perceptions of being treated unfairly?
 
AWE

The courts and arbitrators are why there is still DOH and 330s on the East... Compliments of West strategy and donations. And also why any predictions about the future are pointless but entertaining.

 

[snapthis]

The courts and arbitrators are why there is still DOH and 330s on the East... Compliments of West strategy and donations. And also why any predictions about the future are pointless but entertaining.

The real men of genius are entertaining those who follow the plane business.
 
https://www.planebusiness.com/
 
 

While the Supreme Court ruling on the Affordable Care Act had little direct impact on the industry, and Friday's ruling had some impact on the industry, we had another court decision come down late Friday that has direct impact on the seniority negotiations that were scheduled to start Monday between pilots representing American Airlines, and two separate pilot groups representing the two warring factions from the old US Airways operation.
Remember that the two US Airways pilot groups never got past the issue of negotiating a seniority agreement, hence they never negotiated a joint collective bargaining agreement with US Airways.
The Real Men of Genius, aka the old US Airline Pilots Association group that was made up predominately of the original US Airways East pilots, who left the Air Line Pilots Association rather than accept the negotiated seniority agreement that was overseen by ALPA at the time, got smacked down by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.
In a 2-1 ruling, the court ruled that USAPA had breached its duty of fair representation on behalf of the America West pilot group. The court then remanded the case back to the district court with an order enjoining USAPA from participating in the McCaskill-Bond seniority integration proceedings, including any seniority-related discussions leading up to those proceedings, except to the extent that USAPA advocates for the Nicolau Award.
In other words, USAPA's role at the seniority negotiations is now pretty much limited to arguing for the implementation of the award the union has fought against since 2005.

The gist of the court's argument? Essentially what we had said all along. Binding arbitration is exactly that. Binding. When the group of US Airways East pilots bolted ALPA and created a new union, for the sole purpose of avoiding the seniority award that was the result of binding arbitration -- which the US Airways East group felt was "unfair" -- the union did not meet the duty of fair representation standard as applied to the America West pilot union members who supported the ruling.
As a result, any and all negotiations involving seniority on behalf of the US Airways pilot group have to now be done using the original Nicolau seniority award -- the award that the US Airways East pilot group has fought against ever since the arbitration was completed.
This is the decision from last week -- though certainly not by any means the most significant in the overall scheme of things -- that made me smile the widest. This situation should never have gone on this long. Congratulations to the America West pilots who were forced to fight this with money out of their own pocket against their own union, to which they were paying dues.
As a result of the court's decision, it looks like the opening round of seniority negotiations will be somewhat delayed at American, while everyone takes a deep breath and figures out how this will change the protocol going forward.

 

[im back..!!]

As you may be aware, the Ninth Circuit is the most often reversed Court, in the Federal System and this ruling should help to keep their unenviable record intact. In the mean time, do not do the company’s job. Do not be “problem solvers” for parties whose intentions are partisan at best, or in the case of Management, contrary to those of any Union worthy of the name. Finally, resist any temptation to use this temporary, (in every sense of the word) – hiccup, as a means to advantage either the Legacy American Pilots, or those of the former America West. Any attempt to do so will result in a legal quagmire; the resolve of the Legacy USAirways pilots on the matter of their seniority has been convincingly demonstrated in the recent past. We haven’t changed our position on the matter.....
 
Blah, blah, blah
 
Good luck taking on the APA, Woody. Especially with an empty piggy bank.

It dosent appear to be a need for USAPA to fight the NIC. The Westy's are doing a bang-up job of educating the LAA natives as to who is in the cat bird seat.
 
I would think the arbs are big boys, they have the written explanation from the East pilots. USAPA should just do and say nothing. Let the arbs read east opinion, let the LAA explain to the arbs what a croc the NIC is.....
 
Arbs are specifically not bound by the NIC, only USAPA is.
 
The arbs will look to put West pilots where they want whithin the LAA list, (maybe NIC, maybe not). 
 
If they use the NIC I know where I fall and the LAA gets punished along with the East.
 
If they use anything else, its ok for most everyone, and only reduces the upside to the West, there is no down side to any party....  Everyone keeps what they had, and is protected in their seats.
 
The opportunity to be punitive towards any group is remote, it is much harder to convince the other 2 arbs that they need to punish an entire group of people such as Nichalau did on his own.
 
So, I say to USAPA....cease and desist, your work is done.....

 

[EastUS1]

Ever wonder what pure, supreme hipocrisy looks like?

 
By no means. While your daily mirror views must provide ready and easy reference; quite unlike "you'se" self; I was neither rejected by the FBI or anyone else, and instead of becoming nothing more than just a pathetic, ill manered, whining little child, earlier and obviously only supposedly wanting to "serve my country and make my family proud"... many of us actual people did both. Any grand and noble joy apparently attendant to trying to usurp other "fellows" years of service by such pitiful little wannabes like yourself necessarily eludes me. Oh well....Not everyone can become a mighty self-styled "spartan" purely inside some drooling group of deranged adolescents' Fantasyland....My loss, I suppose.  😉
 
Perhaps you can one day even seek honored and fully ceremonial burial in whatever odd little cemetary might then indulge "spartans": "Here lies a complete Loser who never actually did anything"....Aww heck; who am I to judge? With all your only expressed and purely supposed desire to "serve my country"....Who knows? Perhaps your "life" might prove fully worthy of a 21 Kazoo Salute! 🙂

 

[CactusPilot1]

The real men of genius are entertaining those who follow the plane business.
 
https://www.planebusiness.com/
 
 
While the Supreme Court ruling on the Affordable Care Act had little direct impact on the industry, and Friday's ruling had some impact on the industry, we had another court decision come down late Friday that has direct impact on the seniority negotiations that were scheduled to start Monday between pilots representing American Airlines, and two separate pilot groups representing the two warring factions from the old US Airways operation.
Remember that the two US Airways pilot groups never got past the issue of negotiating a seniority agreement, hence they never negotiated a joint collective bargaining agreement with US Airways.
The Real Men of Genius, aka the old US Airline Pilots Association group that was made up predominately of the original US Airways East pilots, who left the Air Line Pilots Association rather than accept the negotiated seniority agreement that was overseen by ALPA at the time, got smacked down by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.
In a 2-1 ruling, the court ruled that USAPA had breached its duty of fair representation on behalf of the America West pilot group. The court then remanded the case back to the district court with an order enjoining USAPA from participating in the McCaskill-Bond seniority integration proceedings, including any seniority-related discussions leading up to those proceedings, except to the extent that USAPA advocates for the Nicolau Award.
In other words, USAPA's role at the seniority negotiations is now pretty much limited to arguing for the implementation of the award the union has fought against since 2005.
The gist of the court's argument? Essentially what we had said all along. Binding arbitration is exactly that. Binding. When the group of US Airways East pilots bolted ALPA and created a new union, for the sole purpose of avoiding the seniority award that was the result of binding arbitration -- which the US Airways East group felt was "unfair" -- the union did not meet the duty of fair representation standard as applied to the America West pilot union members who supported the ruling.
As a result, any and all negotiations involving seniority on behalf of the US Airways pilot group have to now be done using the original Nicolau seniority award -- the award that the US Airways East pilot group has fought against ever since the arbitration was completed.
This is the decision from last week -- though certainly not by any means the most significant in the overall scheme of things -- that made me smile the widest. This situation should never have gone on this long. Congratulations to the America West pilots who were forced to fight this with money out of their own pocket against their own union, to which they were paying dues.
As a result of the court's decision, it looks like the opening round of seniority negotiations will be somewhat delayed at American, while everyone takes a deep breath and figures out how this will change the protocol going forward.

 
Bravo, real men of genius. Bravo
 

 

[EastUS1]

The courts are inconsistent and self contradictory. Arbitrators have even more leeway. It is not possible to accurately predict the next 12 hours, much less the "when", "what", or "durability" of the next "conclusion", or if there even will be one before we retire. But there is plenty of entertainment.

 
"But there is plenty of entertainment" Indeed. 😉

 

[EastUS1]

 
Is it frustrating when the courts and arbitrators don't give into your demands and perceptions of being treated unfairly?
 
AWE
 

 
Hardly, since both are merely fallible institutions of humankind, burdened with all of our collective foibles. Grow up. What's eternally frustrating is when sad creatures like yourself find nothing more than self-serving, rank opportunism in every even imaginable situation as (however incredibly) somehow being a strangely perverted form of "virtue".
 
Enjoy PHX and the show in general. I rather suspect much more's to come, and should "you'se" ever grow a half hair anywhere; the wager's always open for "you'se" to fully demonstrate to the whole world's delight just what sort of even imagined "Pilot" you truly are....Be the very first ever on your "spartan" block to do so.....NO?   Why not? 😉
 
Umm...Would it help the chances of your wager acceptance if I promised I was properly AWA-struck by even the very threat of an heroic spartan cowboys' mighty "knife" over my head?....Not to mention a "boot" on my neck? 🙂

 

[Freighterguynow]

Is it frustrating when the courts and arbitrators don't give into your demands and perceptions of being treated unfairly?
 
AWE

Mirror mirror on the wall ...

 

[EastUS1]

 
Hardly, since both are merely fallible institutions of humankind, burdened with all of our collective foibles. Grow up. What's eternally frustrating is when sad creatures like yourself find nothing more than self-serving, rank opportunism in every even imaginable situation as (however incredibly) somehow being a strangely perverted form of "virtue".
 
Enjoy PHX and the show in general. I rather suspect much more's to come, and should "you'se" ever grow a half hair anywhere; the wager's always open for "you'se" to fully demonstrate to the whole world's delight just what sort of even imagined "Pilot" you truly are....Be the very first ever on your "spartan" block to do so.....NO?   Why not? 😉
 
Umm...Would it help the chances of your wager acceptance if I promised I was properly AWA-struck by even the very threat of an heroic spartan cowboys' mighty "knife" over my head?....Not to mention a "boot" on my neck? 🙂

 
 
Sigh...2 "minus votes" already, but nothing but yet more "spartan" wimps typically refusing any/all personal challenges.  I'm bored. I suppose we'll all instead have to eagerly await their latest "heroic" avatar reference or posted cartoon image instead.....Seriously bored here.
 
Don't mistake that for any defensive notions agaisnt "you'se" latest "triumph"....I'm just hoping some might have become unusually cocky during this time....?

 

[EastUS1]

As a result of the court's decision, it looks like the opening round of seniority negotiations will be somewhat delayed at American, while everyone takes a deep breath and figures out how this will change the protocol going forward.

 
Who, outside of PHX that is, should be at all deeply distressed by that?

 

[Monkee]

 
By no means. While your daily mirror views must provide ready and easy reference; quite unlike "you'se" self; I was neither rejected by the FBI or anyone else, and instead of becoming nothing more than just a pathetic, ill manered, whining little child, earlier and obviously only supposedly wanting to "serve my country and make my family proud"... many of us actual people did both. Any grand and noble joy apparently attendant to trying to usurp other "fellows" years of service by such pitiful little wannabes like yourself necessarily eludes me. Oh well....Not everyone can become a mighty self-styled "spartan" purely inside some drooling group of deranged adolescents' Fantasyland....My loss, I suppose.  😉
 
Perhaps you can one day even seek honored and fully ceremonial burial in whatever odd little cemetary might then indulge "spartans": "Here lies a complete Loser who never actually did anything"....Aww heck; who am I to judge? With all your only expressed and purely supposed desire to "serve my country"....Who knows? Perhaps your "life" might prove fully worthy of a 21 Kazoo Salute! 🙂

 
I love it when you post while drinking, watching your downward spiral into crazy-town is pretty hilarious.  You starting to figure out that you lost yet?  Keep up the comedy, laughing at you, not with you.

 

[Monkee]

 
Hardly, since both are merely fallible institutions of humankind, burdened with all of our collective foibles. Grow up. What's eternally frustrating is when sad creatures like yourself find nothing more than self-serving, rank opportunism in every even imaginable situation as (however incredibly) somehow being a strangely perverted form of "virtue".
 
Enjoy PHX and the show in general. I rather suspect much more's to come, and should "you'se" ever grow a half hair anywhere; the wager's always open for "you'se" to fully demonstrate to the whole world's delight just what sort of even imagined "Pilot" you truly are....Be the very first ever on your "spartan" block to do so.....NO?   Why not? 😉
 
Umm...Would it help the chances of your wager acceptance if I promised I was properly AWA-struck by even the very threat of an heroic spartan cowboys' mighty "knife" over my head?....Not to mention a "boot" on my neck? 🙂

 
Commander Mc Bragg, showing off his insecurity for everyone to see.  What kind of pathetic life do you have?  Keep it up, the comedy is delicious.

 

[EastUS1]

 
I love it when you post while drinking, watching your downward spiral into crazy-town is pretty hilarious.  You starting to figure out that you lost yet?  Keep up the comedy, laughing at you, not with you.

 
Oh hardly. I was largely more concerned with the spiritual health of such as prechilill:  prechilill, on 26 Jun 2015 - 7:51 PM, said: "Big bus right around the corner. Any advice on managing reserve bidding on the 330? God, I can't wait to get my hands on that thing!"   What will happen to her very soul when her latest folly, once again, proves just that? 😉

 

[EastUS1]

 
Commander Mc Bragg, showing off his insecurity for everyone to see.  What kind of pathetic life do you have?  Keep it up, the comedy is delicious.

 
"insecurity for everyone to see"?...So THAT'S why no "spartans" accept any challenges? Thanks. I'd never understood that before now. I'd mistakenly figured "you'se" to just be nothing more than a small pack of blowhard punks. How could I have so badly misjudged your noble bunch? 🙂

 

[Monkee]

 
"insecurity for everyone to see"?...So THAT'S why no "spartans" accept any challenges? Thanks. I'd never understood that before now. 🙂

 
There is a lot you don't understand.  First and foremost is how much of a braying ass you are.