2015 Pilot Discussion.

[Claxon]

I tend to think something along those lines will take place, they will never get the the NIC or I guess they can have it only in PHX. Our group has a DFR ready to go, the APA sure has a mess on their hands.


This will be tied up for ages.

They have the nic in phoenix now, on a shelf in the old corporate office.  I hear Roto Router(tm) took over that space.    

 

[Phoenix]

Phone rings:

Keith Wilson's Secretary answers: "Yes, Keth Wilson's office."

Keith Wilson's Secretary barges into his office:

KW: "I told you I'm busy and can't answer the phone!"

KW Secretary: Yes, sir, but it's Bob Crandall and he demands to speak directly to you to say "I told you so."

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-mJUyYskVYI

 

[traderjake]

You spent millions trying to prove USAPA inherited ALPA's DFR... 

 
Did you ever admit you were wrong about the West getting a Merger Committee ?   😀

 

[snapthis]

Contempt of Res JudiCaCa.. Or SniffThis, not much else.

It looks like the 9th had contempt for 10h. Should the Nic be delivered with Preperation 10h to ease the pain?

 

[Res Judicata]

It looks like the 9th had contempt for 10h. Should the Nic be delivered with Preperation 10h to ease the pain?

It's being delivered with a Saguaro ramrod.

 

[Phoenix]

It looks like the 9th had contempt for 10h. Should the Nic be delivered with Preperation 10h to ease the pain?

 
 
"looks like" is noncommittal, just like the 9th that couldn't commit to what your harm was or to what they could actually provide you as a remedy.    
 
They did not rewrite the MOU, did they?  Paragraph 10h. remains unmolested.  Instead they attempt to effectively molest the MB Protocol Agreement by denying the Arb Panel a full opportunity to hear all evidence from all parties.
 
In their eagerness to help it appears they may have messed up things even more.   We shall see.

 

[Res Judicata]

"looks like" is noncommittal, just like the 9th that couldn't commit to what your harm was or to what they could actually provide you as a remedy.    
 
They did not rewrite the MOU, did they?  Paragraph 10h. remains unmolested.  Instead they attempt to effectively molest the MB Protocol Agreement by denying the Arb Panel a full opportunity to hear all evidence from all parties.
 
In their eagerness to help it appears they may have messed up things even more.   We shall see.

Despite your wishfull thinking, this isn't messed up at all. It's crystal clear. The East Committee AKA USAPA according to the Law, must SIMPLY present, defend, and vigorously advocate for the Nicolau award to be accepted as the list for ALL us airways pilots. Easy Peasy....no? you won't get any push back from the west aside from the Draconian C&R requested to act as damages against your group for 8 years of PROVEN harm and discrimination.

If the APA gets to advocate for the reordering of the U.S. Air list, then the U.S. Air pilots should be able to advocate reshuffling the APA list right? Makes sense. I bet the U.S. Air pilots would love to right the TWA wrongs for the APA. I'm sure that will be fine with them. Everything is a two way street in arbitration.

 

[Phoenix]

It looks like the 9th had contempt for 10h. Should the Nic be delivered with Preperation 10h to ease the pain?

 
 
Just to review... Paragraph 10h. remains in the MOU exactly like it was ratified.  But even if the 9th had stricken Paragraph 10h. it would have absolutely no effect on the three seniority lists that are contactually the enforced status quo.  Even though Paragraph 10h was supposedly the exact instance and mechanism of USAPA's DFR breach, the 9th didn't alter it, rewrite it, or strike it.  No contract was rewritten. No contract was altered.  Not one letter.  
 
The 9th may have said a lot of feel good things but they didn't change the contracts.
 
The 9th decided instead to leap off a cliff and may have inadvertently attempted to back door an alteration to MB arbitration, by muzzling the participants.   Oops.  
 
Good news is the IT department will probably be done before a list is available.

 

[Res Judicata]

Just to review... Paragraph 10h. remains in the MOU exactly like it was ratified.  But even if the 9th had stricken Paragraph 10h. it would have absolutely no effect on the three seniority lists that are contactually the enforced status quo.  Even though Paragraph 10h was supposedly the exact instance and mechanism of USAPA's DFR breach, the 9th didn't alter it, rewrite it, or strike it.  No contract was rewritten. No contract was altered.  Not one letter.  
 
The 9th may have said a lot of feel good things but they didn't change the contracts.
 
The 9th decided instead to leap off a cliff and may have inadvertently attempted to back door an alteration to MB arbitration, by muzzling the participants.   Oops.  
 

Don't worry about it! The APA is granted a "wide range of reasonableness" to complete this little matter. The West has a court order and the East has a used Ford Taurus and a soon to be BK LLC. Relax. It'll be fine.

 

[Phoenix]

Don't worry about it! The APA is granted a "wide range of reasonableness" to complete this little matter. The West has a court order and the East has a used Ford Taurus and a soon to be BK LLC. Relax. It'll be fine.

 
"The majority-injunction’s interference with the McCaskill-Bond arbitration proceeding is broad. In effect, it ties the hands of the arbitration board as to the scope of the evidence it can hear; it bars the arbitration board from hearing any evidence of the East Pilots position. Such judicial interference with an arbitration board’s pre-trial decision on the scope of evidence it chooses to hear is unprecedented."
 
 
Even though the above quote is from the dissent, it clearly demonstrates that the 9th decision assaults the MB statute and an arbitration panel that is now in process, though the statute and the panel both were never at issue before them.  Can of worms open.  
 
It'll be fine.

 

[Res Judicata]

; it bars the arbitration board from hearing any evidence of the East Pilots position
 
What about all of the evidence that the East Pilots presented to George Nicolau? You chose that Arbitrator. Somehow the "other' arbitrators decision is more likely to be correct if the poor East just gets a second bite at the apple after  8 YEARS of their own union uniliaterally discriminating against a minority group?  What your fake union did was litigated, and found to be illegal. In a published 9th circuit case...meaning it is now precedent. That idiot Bradford screwed up so badly he couldn't even hide his lynch mob behind the NMB. Best of Luck with your appeal. Of Course it will be self funded after Conrad freezes all of your assets and Silver cuts us a check for over 3 million dollars. But anyway. Good Luck with the Tashmina Argument. He comes off as a Butt-hurt whiner whose ego got bruised but whatever. Knock yourselves out, (at your own personal expense) But Look at the bright side. You're not on LOA 93 anymore so you can better afford to fund your own campaign. Remember to Thank the APA for your improved lot in life. Without them, you'd still be making 50% less. Well done Bradford! You're a genius!!

 

[snapthis]

"looks like" is noncommittal, just like the 9th that couldn't commit to what your harm was or to what they could actually provide you as a remedy.    
 
They did not rewrite the MOU, did they?  Paragraph 10h. remains unmolested.  Instead they attempt to effectively molest the MB Protocol Agreement by denying the Arb Panel a full opportunity to hear all evidence from all parties.
 
In their eagerness to help it appears they may have messed up things even more.   We shall see.

10h remains unmolested? That's because 10h was the molester. The 9th rightly found that there was an attempted molestation:

"USAPA included Paragraph 10(h) solely to benefit the East Pilots over the West Pilots, to free them from the consequences of the arbitration to which they were bound. USAPA’s is blatantly discriminatory. Such a decision falls outside the “wide range as a legitimate union purpose."

"Far from demonstrating that the
union had a legitimate purpose in negotiating Paragraph 10(h), the paragraph is
further evidence of USAPA’s intransigence and its continuous course of
discriminatory conduct. USAPA’s motive is nowhere more evident than in its
behavior during the MOU roadshows where, as the district court found, USAPA’s
representatives told the East Pilots that Paragraph 10(h) rendered the Nicolau
Award “dead,” but also “played fast-and-loose” with the West Pilots, deceiving
them about the purpose and effect of Paragraph 10(h).11 USAPA included
Paragraph 10(h) solely to benefit the East Pilots over the West Pilots, to free them
from the consequences of the arbitration to which they were bound"

 

[Phoenix]

10h remains unmolested? That's because 10h was the molester. The 9th rightly found that there was an attempted molestation:

"USAPA included Paragraph 10(h) solely to benefit the East Pilots over the West Pilots, to free them from the consequences of the arbitration to which they were bound. USAPA’s is blatantly discriminatory. Such a decision falls outside the “wide range as a legitimate union purpose."

"Far from demonstrating that the
union had a legitimate purpose in negotiating Paragraph 10(h), the paragraph is
further evidence of USAPA’s intransigence and its continuous course of
discriminatory conduct. USAPA’s motive is nowhere more evident than in its
behavior during the MOU roadshows where, as the district court found, USAPA’s
representatives told the East Pilots that Paragraph 10(h) rendered the Nicolau
Award “dead,” but also “played fast-and-loose” with the West Pilots, deceiving
them about the purpose and effect of Paragraph 10(h).11 USAPA included
Paragraph 10(h) solely to benefit the East Pilots over the West Pilots, to free them
from the consequences of the arbitration to which they were bound"

 
 
You don't make any sense. If the MOU (and paragraph 10h. specifically) was the mechanism of USAPA's DFR breach, why didn't the 9th strike it, rewrite it, or replace it with something that was fair?  They did absolutely nothing to change even so much as a single word or letter of the MOU. Nothing.  
 
The 9th made a lot of happy feel good pronouncements that appease the West and left the MOU exactly as it was.  I can't tell you what will happen today or going forward, but at least I am honest enough to realize the 9th left in tact the MOU that supposedly was the DFR breach, but instead attacked the MB process, the Protocol Agreement, and the arbitration panel that was already underway performing their duties.    
 
Good luck.  

 

[CactusPilot1]

10h remains unmolested? That's because 10h was the molester. The 9th rightly found that there was an attempted molestation:

"USAPA included Paragraph 10(h) solely to benefit the East Pilots over the West Pilots, to free them from the consequences of the arbitration to which they were bound. USAPA’s is blatantly discriminatory. Such a decision falls outside the “wide range as a legitimate union purpose."

"Far from demonstrating that the
union had a legitimate purpose in negotiating Paragraph 10(h), the paragraph is
further evidence of USAPA’s intransigence and its continuous course of
discriminatory conduct. USAPA’s motive is nowhere more evident than in its
behavior during the MOU roadshows where, as the district court found, USAPA’s
representatives told the East Pilots that Paragraph 10(h) rendered the Nicolau
Award “dead,” but also “played fast-and-loose” with the West Pilots, deceiving
them about the purpose and effect of Paragraph 10(h).11 USAPA included
Paragraph 10(h) solely to benefit the East Pilots over the West Pilots, to free them
from the consequences of the arbitration to which they were bound"

 
They are as dishonest as the day is long. I wonder how long the APA is going to ignore that character trait while a small problem becomes a similar problem that ALPA had years back?

 

[EastUS1]

Can of worms open.  

 
Indeed. The product of lawyers can never be reasonably predicted, as we've once more seen demonstrated both in this case and even the Supreme Court's latest insanities, and I can see at least a half dozen possibly future roads leading from this immediately, all dependent on too many variables to now know.  The west posters here see only what they can manage, as if a small pack of hyenas stifled by the wearing of sized-down/custom-fitted horse blinders. Oh well, another day passes...and they're long-past due yet another presumptive jubilee in any case.