2015 Pilot Discussion.

[luvthe9]

Actually, you did not make more money than me and you did not have better working conditions. Flying to Europe was not so bad for those years and when I retire I will have an income of $4,000 a month that the AWA pilots will never see. Not as much as promised, but I can thank ALPA for that. We also had both a 401k plus a DC retirement during those years. You can easily have a seven figure Fidelity account since the DC and 401k inception.  
 
Over my career, my earnings have been much better than an AWA pilot especially with the five year upgrade program. In my sixth year of employment I made more than an AWA pilot has ever made and that was in 1980s $s. I never lost the stock in BK that AWA pilots were forced to buy as a condition of employment and the 330 pays handsomely now. I am guessing that you were either grossly misinformed by AOL or are willfully ignorant. 
 
Even the F/Os that were stagnant during and prior to the years of LOA 93 are making much more as captains due to East attrition with the current pay rates plus their PBGC. Don't worry about the East. We are doing just fine.

The boy is clueless,

 

[luvthe9]

Another NICless day in the fishbowl

 

[Freighterguynow]

 
Our reps did listen to Freund, and we do have the Nic. 


  We totally understood that you could go sit on your side of the separate ops fence, t.

Just don't *****
about it

 

[nic4us]

Actually, you did not make more money than me and you did not have better working conditions. Flying to Europe was not so bad for those years and when I retire I will have an income of $4,000 a month that the AWA pilots will never see. Not as much as promised, but I can thank ALPA for that. We also had both a 401k plus a DC retirement during those years. You can easily have a seven figure Fidelity account since the DC and 401k inception.  
 
Over my career, my earnings have been much better than an AWA pilot especially with the five year upgrade program. In my sixth year of employment I made more than an AWA pilot has ever made and that was in 1980s $s. I never lost the stock in BK that AWA pilots were forced to buy as a condition of employment and the 330 pays handsomely now. I am guessing that you were either grossly misinformed by AOL or are willfully ignorant. 
 
Even the F/Os that were stagnant during and prior to the years of LOA 93 are making much more as captains due to East attrition with the current pay rates plus their PBGC. Don't worry about the East. We are doing just fine. 

 
Very interesting.  Please post your w2 average gross amounts(ballpark figure will work just fine) for the years 2004 thru 2014...that is the decade I am talking about.  As a widebody capt on the east, you may have made slightly more than I did, however, I bet it is really close.  Now for the majority of the east captains, the ones in the same category as me, (A320 capt) the figure is going to be far less.  
 
The biggest point, and the one you are TOTALLY MISSING...is WE ALL could have made more during that decade if the east was not so effin stupid.  Seriously, if you were a widebody captain making slightly more or the same as all the West capts, just exactly what was your major malfunction?  You were working for a company about to LIQUIDATE according to Doug Parker.  Your seniority was say 120 out of 2800 active pilots who where about to all be inactive, and the merger happens and you find yourself number 120-4600 at a viable company willing to offer you a raise and better work rules and you tell everybody to go F off because you cannot tolerate a seniority award that allows 1 out of every 3 upgrades to go to a West pilot in a fleet where we brought over a 1/3rd of the airplanes?
 
See the problem here?  2 out of every 3 upgrades would still have been east!!  The east F/Os that were stagnant would have still gotten their upgrades, still made the new rates, but made a lot more for that entire DECADE.
 
Bottom line, you guys screwed the pooch.  At the New American, we will have a new combined list, it will likely incorporate the Nic, and the east's idiotic behavior will all have been for naught.

 

[A320 Driver]

No, we didn't "screw the pooch". You cannot negotiate a contract without two interested parties. After a media campaign, law suits, petitions to the NMB, a failed job action and everything short of begging, we could not get management to the table to negotiate a contract. Time and again Parker and Kirby stated in Crew News that there was no point as long as the NIC debacle was ongoing. Seniority was only one section of the contract, but management saved nearly a billion dollars staying away from serious bargaining. These are the facts, but I suppose you find it more convenient to blame the East pilot group for the lack of progress.  

 

[luvthe9]

Very interesting.  Please post your w2 average gross amounts(ballpark figure will work just fine) for the years 2004 thru 2014...that is the decade I am talking about.  As a widebody capt on the east, you may have made slightly more than I did, however, I bet it is really close.  Now for the majority of the east captains, the ones in the same category as me, (A320 capt) the figure is going to be far less.  
 
The biggest point, and the one you are TOTALLY MISSING...is WE ALL could have made more during that decade if the east was not so effin stupid.  Seriously, if you were a widebody captain making slightly more or the same as all the West capts, just exactly what was your major malfunction?  You were working for a company about to LIQUIDATE according to Doug Parker.  Your seniority was say 120 out of 2800 active pilots who where about to all be inactive, and the merger happens and you find yourself number 120-4600 at a viable company willing to offer you a raise and better work rules and you tell everybody to go F off because you cannot tolerate a seniority award that allows 1 out of every 3 upgrades to go to a West pilot in a fleet where we brought over a 1/3rd of the airplanes?
 
See the problem here?  2 out of every 3 upgrades would still have been east!!  The east F/Os that were stagnant would have still gotten their upgrades, still made the new rates, but made a lot more for that entire DECADE.
 
Bottom line, you guys screwed the pooch.  At the New American, we will have a new combined list, it will likely incorporate the Nic, and the east's idiotic behavior will all have been for naught.

You guys are the ones that "screwed the pooch".............



"May 9 Scott Kirby, revealed Project Zanzibar It is now beyond dispute that the junior AW pilot, Dave Odell, and 300-400 other AW F/Os hired in 2002-05 would have been furloughed absent the US merger, as AW went into Chapter 11, perhaps never to emerge."




"The AAA pilots brought 2/3 of the jobs to the merger, 75% of the future attrition and 100% of the premium paying jobs, yet in the middle of 2027 there are only 5 of the top 100 pilots on the merged list from the former AAA list. That is, our attrition argument at its very core."







How soon you little AFO's forget the details . Your lucky to be here.

 

[CallawayGolf]

There were other sections of the contract, but a TA would never have been reached without resolving Section 22. It took them eight years, but the 9th finally came back and affirmed management's understanding that using any other seniority list besides the NIC for the CBA would have created a substantial legal liability for them for culluding with USAPA to violate their DFR to all pilots. Management filed the DJ specifically to get an answer to the question if they could or could not negotiate with USAPA if the latter did not advocate for the NIC. Had that answer have come in any actionalble way, negotiations could have restarted. Even the NMB board concluded that negotiations were futile and meaningless until a federal court resolved the untenable position USAPA put everyone one in (and the 9th and Silver added to by not answering the question of a fully ripe DFR claim). USAPA is 100% responsible for stalled and parked negotiations, and of course for a federal injuntion for an illegal job action. 

 

[EastUS1]

 
Please explain how I as an AWA pilot making far more money on much better work rules than the east LCC pilot for an entire decade equates to my whole life history at AWA.  On second thought, please do not explain, cause I will not bother reading anyway.
 

 
That last being fully understandable, since the actual truth's often painful for some. 😉

 

[EastUS1]

There were other sections of the contract, but a TA would never have been reached without resolving Section 22. ....

 
There lies the meat of the matter. Management merely played the sad circumstances for all they were worth.

 

[EastUS1]

 
Internet tough guy, obsessing and crying about negative points.  Get a life, hic..!

 
Don't be so touchy and overly emotional princess. The point about plus/minus/whatever votes was that if there's actually any cogent thought behind them, that it's better for all to see such expressed for open discussion, rather than just mindlessly mouse clicking. Technology's a wonderful thing most times, but it can serve to make the dumbing-down of people an easy process.
 
Per: "Internet tough guy"? it has nothing to do with the internet, save for being an invitational medium. It's a long-open and legitimate wager. Your sad sorts simply have no apparently viable response other than to pretend otherwise.

 

[Monkee]

 
Don't be so touchy and overly emotional princess. The point about plus/minus/whatever votes was that if there's actually any cogent thought behind them that it's better for all to see such expressed for open discussion, rather than just mindlessly mouse clicking.

 
You really are thin skinned aren't you?  Add in your obsessive compulsions, and your complete lack of self worth, then mix in the alcohol, and it is the funniest thing on the net!  Go on one of your insane rants, the world needs some humor.

 

[EastUS1]

 
You really are thin skinned aren't you? ...

 
Indeed. Whatever else explanation could be possible for offering up a wager for the world to see that might hold even the remote possibility of wholesale humiliation? Thanks for the chuckles "Dr. Phil"....Just when I was wondering if the Joke of the Day competiion had finally finished it's run around here. 😉

 

[CallawayGolf]

 
There lies the meat of the matter. Management merely played the sad circumstances for all they were worth.

Well USAPA intentionally dealt Management a royal flush and promised them a huge financial liability if they colluded to dump that unbeatable hand to accept USAPA's twisted view of labor contract law. Name one airline CEO that you think would have willing colluded with a CBA under the threat of a painfully ripe DFR / collusion action? Besides higher labor costs and a large penalty for violating a labor agreement with the intent to harm the minority group of pilots, what could Management have expected in return for further negotiations from 2007-2014?

 

[EastUS1]

Well USAPA intentionally dealt Management a royal flush and promised them a huge financial liability if they colluded to dump that unbeatable hand to accept USAPA's twisted view of labor contract law. Name one airline CEO that you think would have willing colluded with a CBA under the threat of a painfully ripe DFR / collusion action? Besides higher labor costs and a large penalty for violating a labor agreement with the intent to harm the minority group of pilots, what could Management have expected in return for further negotiations from 2007-2014?

 
By no means do I assign blame to management there Callaway. They were gifted with incredibly divisive conditions among labor that must've birthed derisive laughter whenever even considered among themselves in private.
 
In retrospect; I'm only a bit surprised that "Doug" could at all manage some semblance of a straight face while telling assembled pilots during a Crew News that he supposedly cared about getting a contract "because it's the right thing to do." 😉  As even an only-laughably supposed "organized" labor group; pilots have been our own worst enemies for two decades and some spare change now. 
 
Per: "Management a royal flush and promised them a huge financial liability.."? There we differ. I've no thought that mangement ever lost even a moment's sleep from concerns about any absurdly fantasized "huge financial liability." History's shown there was no real need for them to ever bring the west and east together, and they had less than zero desire to ever see a more costly contract in place, and simply exploited circumstances so's to push away from the table completely.

 

[Claxon]

There were other sections of the contract, but a TA would never have been reached without resolving Section 22. It took them eight years, but the 9th finally came back and affirmed management's understanding that using any other seniority list besides the NIC for the CBA would have created a substantial legal liability for them for culluding with USAPA to violate their DFR to all pilots. Management filed the DJ specifically to get an answer to the question if they could or could not negotiate with USAPA if the latter did not advocate for the NIC. Had that answer have come in any actionalble way, negotiations could have restarted. Even the NMB board concluded that negotiations were futile and meaningless until a federal court resolved the untenable position USAPA put everyone one in (and the 9th and Silver added to by not answering the question of a fully ripe DFR claim). USAPA is 100% responsible for stalled and parked negotiations, and of course for a federal injuntion for an illegal job action.

USAPA parked the west for 8 plus years. The last few years has seen massive recovery by east pilots financially. The 330 positions have resulted in huge W2 increases.
Nic4us has no idea that east pilots have PBGC and DC monies that she never refers to.
west pilots helped drag the rest of the industry down for years with low pay, no pensions.
Do the math. An east pilot who collects PBGC for say 20 yrs after retirement will have earned an additional $880,000.00 that a west pilot will never see.
Those are facts west pilots conveniently disregard.