767 Envoy Class Reconfigured?

[TechBoy]

Tech Boy,

You have a point, but a smart airline management would rather have your $20-25K than the $200-$300 a year from the Kettles, yet US appears to favor the Kettles.

I will also guess that a good percentage of the $20-25K you spend is actually profitable for UA.

The entire fare/yield management system is broken and no one has the guts to fix it.

There is no place for $99 transcon fares any more--they are not economically viable. If the majors would just say let those people go to the LCC's instead of matching, they'd see higher AVERAGE fares, and more likely profits. The world has changed. People are no longer willing to be gouged. We (VFF's) are sick and tired of subsidizing the Kettles.

Upgrades are simply a low cost (no cost if the seat is empty anyway) way of saying "thank you for your loyalty, we value you as a customer". The problem here is US doesn't care about its most loyal customers.

Art,

I agree with you. US has a huge service problem, hence I avoid them whenever possible. I also agree that you and I are more valuable than the infrequent cheap fare passenger. But I don't agree that applies to all VFFs. I'm typically spending $500-1000 per ticket which should make me a profitable customer. But there are lots of VFFs who fly mostly on the same fares as the Kettles. I'm not sure that they are really worth much more to the airline.

Upgrades (and E+ on United) are ways to maintain customer loyalty. I agree completely with that. But I'm not sure that means that there should be lots of premium seats on every plane when the airline is selling very few premium tickets. In fact, it can be counterproductive to the airline at times. If the VFF can count on getting an upgrade almost all of the time, then they are less likely to actually buy a seat in the premium cabin. Clearly, United had a bit of a problem with this in their international operation and the resizing of their premium cabins may limit the problem.

I just don't know how many C fares US tends to sell, but it doesn't seem like a lot. So shrinking the C cabin seems rational to me. Of course, if the inferior service continues to drive away high fare customers (which is different from VFFs), there is a more serious problem that cannot be solved by number and type of seats.

 

[BoeingBoy]

TechBoy,

It may surprise you that I agree with at least part of what you said - each and every VFF isn't necessarily a profitable customer for US or any other airline. It is entirely possible to make CP buying only rock bottom WN matching fares and US may well lose money on that type of VFF. Which is why I said "the average FF" instead of "every FF" and also why a different method of determining who gets status might be worth discussing.

However, I'll stand on what I said - the people who pay the higher coach fare levels and fly enough to make elite status (the average FF) have paid for their upgrade and are still profitable for US. Make it harder to get that upgrade on US than the competition, and some of them will go to the competition. You can't make up that revenue from the Kettles shopping for price, unless you can compete with the lcc's on price. That's something that US can't because it doesn't have the lcc's cost structure.

So you can say that the F/C (or Envoy) cabins should be sized to reflect how many seats can be sold at those fares, but it is a dangerous game to play given US' dependence on those who pay the higher coach fares to support US' high costs.

Jim

 

[WCT]

i'm glad to see that US isn't the only airline serving F drinks in Plastic!

Okay, I don't get it? Why are you on the East serving first class pax's with Plastic party cups on MEAL flights??? Even on the West all of our first class service has glassware on food flights!! Are you telling me they have no glassware on the European markets too? Someone needs to address this issue asap! What an embarrasment to envoy customers. We only use plastics on our shorter markets in the West, and that is too embarrasing. Why are we not on the same page here? All of our glassware on the West is the New Us Airways wine, rock glasses with logo. :blink:

 

[drjochen]

We flew Envoy on a 767 from PHL-MUC 3 weeks ago. Apart from the 4 hour departure delay, the broken and filthy seats, the service was pathetic. The flight attendants were grumpy, not a single smile, no drinking water service (in fact, I did not see the flight attendants between dinner and breakfast at all, they were hiding in the galley with the curtain closed), had to hold 3 glasses during landing they wouldn't pick up, food was ok, but certainly not great at all.

Summary: Envoy is not even close to Business on LH or UAL. Why would anyone call this First Class I(thats what my ticket said...)?

 

[WCT]

Twice,

Let me try to answer the question if I may. First of all, above all else, I want RELIABLE service, and I would like to be able to have a REASONABLE expectation of arriving at my destination within an hour or so of schedule. The current performance on international flights is unacceptable at any price.

Secondly, I would expect that IF/WHEN something goes wrong, the airline has a staff dedicated to attending to and reaccommodating premium passengers, whether they be FF's or those who paid for premium service. I include FF's here because as Boeing Boy said, folks like me have earned some of the upgrades we receive since we do historically pay higher prices, and much more often. The disconnect at US is that they either don't realize or don't care that such a small percentage of customers contributes such a large share of the revenue pie. Couple that with the fact that they are currently unreliable, running 10%-30% on time on many PHL flights, and when you are affected like this many customer service agents treat you like it's your fault there's a problem, and one is almost afraid to book on US. One of our members was told by a Chairmans supervisor that he was "wasting his breath" when he insisted (nicely I may add) on being reaccommodated on another airline. I would also expect a reliable web site (not even close more than a year after it went live), and accurate information from FLIFO--for both agents and customers. There is also no excuse for a reservations system which is still so broken many agents couldn't help customers if they wanted to.

Now, as for on board, I would expect US to provide on board service comparable to other airlines serving similar markets, and at similar prices to the others. Today they are way off the mark in all instances.

I recently flew AA on a domestic and international itinerary, all in F and C, and for about half of what US wanted for a similar itinerary all in coach. The JFK-MIA segment featured a full meal service (at 3 hours block time US gives you a snack basket). MIA-SDQ, which was considered international, managed hot towels, a full hot meal service and just about anything else you could imagine, in a 1 hr 50 minute flight. The return SDQ-JFK featured a hot meal as well, but served in courses, and a sundae for dessert. All flights featured linen, china and glass.

I won't even get into CO domestic F, but I will tell you that not only would I be willing to pay a premium for premium service, I would do it regularly, if it was priced competitively. As I indicated elsewhere, I just spent about $9000 in air travel over the past week, 90% of which is personal travel not reimbursed by my company. $6000 went to CO for 2 business first tickets to Milan, returning from Rome. CO's product is regarded as one of the best in the industry, so if you want to know what comprises true premium service try B/F across the pond. Now compare that to the current US product, which priced out at around $7000 EACH, and I think you can see my point.

About $1K more went to CO, with the balance going to AA.

Yes upgrades are important, but most of us more than pay our way too. We expect COMPARABLE service for a COMPARABLE price. Today-US isn't even close. Coupled with the operational problems and customer service issues, and there is no compelling reason to go out of one's way to fly US.

I remain hopeful that someone in Tempe will wake up and take action, but I am beginning to believe they don't care, and are caretaking until a sale or new merger can be announced.

Welcome to America West Airlines!!! Have you finally excepted that, or have you jumped ship yet?!! This airline is not CO, UA, AA, or DL! US airs golden days are over. The only thing we kept is the name. Sad, but true. This company has been thru 3 mergers, nobody wanted the baggage US Air has held over the years, yet America West saw an opportunity! So the mgmt sux! It always has! As long as there making money, they will drive over the competition, and screw the employees too! I see a repeat of TX International all over again, but triple the punches! 🙄 🙄

 

[Art at ISP]

WCT,

My point exactly. What they fail to realize is that the America West model will not work in the east, period. It was a serious miscalculation to think that it would. They are aiming for the wrong targets in the east, and failing to manage the expectations of the east customer.

This regional airline management is way over their heads in trying to run a major airline. They know the cost of everything but the value of nothing. Managing by spreadsheet will cause their ultimate failure.

That said, as indicated in my post, I jumped ship. Not to say I will completely stop, but I will only fly US when it makes sense for me to do so. Accepting connections on US when there are nonstops available from other carriers, or paying US more just to stay loyal just won't happen any more.

It's time for management to step up or step out. Perhaps when the drop in yields begins to show, someone will get their attention.

 

[WCT]

WCT,

My point exactly. What they fail to realize is that the America West model will not work in the east, period. It was a serious miscalculation to think that it would. They are aiming for the wrong targets in the east, and failing to manage the expectations of the east customer.

This regional airline management is way over their heads in trying to run a major airline. They know the cost of everything but the value of nothing. Managing by spreadsheet will cause their ultimate failure.

That said, as indicated in my post, I jumped ship. Not to say I will completely stop, but I will only fly US when it makes sense for me to do so. Accepting connections on US when there are nonstops available from other carriers, or paying US more just to stay loyal just won't happen any more.

It's time for management to step up or step out. Perhaps when the drop in yields begins to show, someone will get their attention.

Thank you. At least we have some ff's and elites dedicated to still fly us. And I believe the only reason a lot of you guys stick around is because of our compassionate, and dedicated employees, and that is the ONLY reason. So thank you all!!! 🙂

 

[Art at ISP]

WCT,

You guys are the only reason we put up with so much for so long. Unfortunately the number of FF's and elites who actually earn elite status the hard way is going to decline in the near future.

Like I said, it's time for the powers that be to step up or step out.

Thank you for your kind words.

And in the general scheme of things, what I feel worst about in leaving is that I do miss my friends at US.

East still is a different animal than West, and until someone realizes that and makes allowances for that there is little hope.

 

[WCT]

WCT,

You guys are the only reason we put up with so much for so long. Unfortunately the number of FF's and elites who actually earn elite status the hard way is going to decline in the near future.

Like I said, it's time for the powers that be to step up or step out.

Thank you for your kind words.

And in the general scheme of things, what I feel worst about in leaving is that I do miss my friends at US.

East still is a different animal than West, and until someone realizes that and makes allowances for that there is little hope.

I can only do the best of my ability to serve the customer, with integrity, and true nature. What is above me, (mgmt) I have no control. So thank you for your kindness too! We can only hope for better things to come, but still be greatful for the good things we still have!

 

[UWCactus]

Maybe I'm in the minority here with my own simplicity, but I dont' see what is so terribly wrong with the service in Envoy. I just flew in Envoy and everything was great. The food was fine, plenty of service, my god I couldn't have stuffed anymore in my mouth. It can use an improvement but by no means did this service 'SUCK!" , as the hatelifers say. The seats could be more comfortable but other than that, a slight improvment is all I saw. Is this about stuffing ones face?

By the way, you might as well drop this topic since upgrades to Envoy Service are in the works in the test kitchen in Phoenix. Give this a rest for now, you can all complain once the new service begins to show up, i'm certain you won't like that either.

 

[US1YFARE]

Maybe I'm in the minority here with my own simplicity, but I dont' see what is so terribly wrong with the service in Envoy.

You must live in a hole in the ground. Try flying your competitors and see what they give for what US is charging. Are you hooked up to a Kool-ade IV? 🙄

 

[drjochen]

Maybe I'm in the minority here with my own simplicity, but I dont' see what is so terribly wrong with the service in Envoy. I just flew in Envoy and everything was great. The food was fine, plenty of service, my god I couldn't have stuffed anymore in my mouth. It can use an improvement but by no means did this service 'SUCK!" , as the hatelifers say. The seats could be more comfortable but other than that, a slight improvment is all I saw. Is this about stuffing ones face?

By the way, you might as well drop this topic since upgrades to Envoy Service are in the works in the test kitchen in Phoenix. Give this a rest for now, you can all complain once the new service begins to show up, i'm certain you won't like that either.

Ever flown Lufthansa Business? JAL? Or even United? No comparison, honestly.

 

[US1YFARE]

Of course she hasn't. The idiots in Tempe are making decisions in a vacuum--with most of that vacuum being in their head. The pressure is so strong their brains were sucked out their ears.

 

[drjochen]

Maybe I'm in the minority here with my own simplicity, but I dont' see what is so terribly wrong with the service in Envoy. I just flew in Envoy and everything was great. The food was fine, plenty of service, my god I couldn't have stuffed anymore in my mouth. It can use an improvement but by no means did this service 'SUCK!" , as the hatelifers say. The seats could be more comfortable but other than that, a slight improvment is all I saw. Is this about stuffing ones face?

By the way, you might as well drop this topic since upgrades to Envoy Service are in the works in the test kitchen in Phoenix. Give this a rest for now, you can all complain once the new service begins to show up, i'm certain you won't like that either.

I flew Envoy 3 times onver the Atlantic in the past 6 weeks.
No smiles, even a friendly greeting; I feel they have to serve those goddamn passengers, I almost want to apologize for sitting in this seat...
EVERY time something on the seat was broken, however, the food was ok.
Cummulative delays for 3 flights were 12 hours.....

 

[WCT]

I flew Envoy 3 times onver the Atlantic in the past 6 weeks.
No smiles, even a friendly greeting; I feel they have to serve those goddamn passengers, I almost want to apologize for sitting in this seat...
EVERY time something on the seat was broken, however, the food was ok.
Cummulative delays for 3 flights were 12 hours.....

Maybe you should address your concern to US Airways customer relations?? You seem to be really hurt by your experience... Food was okay? But you seem to have a problem with the crew serving you?? :blink: