A New Approach to Pilot Pay at US Airways

[PullUp]

The nic is only section 22. Payscales are in another section. DFR (wide range of reasonableness) is difficult to win, and expensive to litigate.
This might be the only way to solve the nic dilemma to everyone's advantage.
The company wins, the westies win, and the east guys don't take it in the shorts too bad.

 

[Metroyet]

The nic is only section 22. Payscales are in another section. DFR (wide range of reasonableness) is difficult to win, and expensive to litigate.
This might be the only way to solve the nic dilemma to everyone's advantage.
The company wins, the westies win, and the east guys don't take it in the shorts too bad.

Winning a DFR against USAPA was a piece of cake...what the hell are you talking about?!

 

[BoeingBoy]

The nic is only section 22. Payscales are in another section. DFR (wide range of reasonableness) is difficult to win, and expensive to litigate.

Not when it's obvious that something was done to primarily benefit one side....

Jim

 

[Move2CLT]

The nic is only section 22. Payscales are in another section. DFR (wide range of reasonableness) is difficult to win, and expensive to litigate.

We already won. Where have you been?

And you guys seem to be worried about the costs, not us.

 

[PullUp]

I give up.
LOA 93 is good enough.
You win.

 

[Beancounter]

LOS IS DOH plain and simple, bidding equip and pos by LOS is the "GOLD STANDARD" if it happens to AWA by fragmentation in the next 6 mos they will be screaming , especially CLEARDIRECT, hell you will hear him in outerspace, trust me the "WEST WILL BE SOLD " in the next transaction! MM!

Aren't you the same one that swore up and down, LOA 93 was going to be a win? You've got one of those magic 8 balls, don't you?

 

[Move2CLT]

I give up.
LOA 93 is good enough.
You win.

And yet another example of why USAPA is so successful.

 

[nevergiveup]

And yet another example of why USAPA is so successful.

After all, it was created by Nic and the west!

 

[Beancounter]

After all, it was created by Nic and the west!

Nice try, but this abomination of a union is aaaaaallllllll your doing. Eventually though we'll be the ones that will have to fix it and make it a union for all US Airways pilots, east and west.

 

[fodase]

The nic is only section 22. Payscales are in another section. DFR (wide range of reasonableness) is difficult to win, and expensive to litigate.
This might be the only way to solve the nic dilemma to everyone's advantage.
The company wins, the westies win, and the east guys don't take it in the shorts too bad.

Normally you would be right, but thanks to the east scum, there is mountains of evidence called "pretext".

 

[PullUp]

Since the west pilot group already works under one payscale for all equipment, how could they object?

 

[BoeingBoy]

First, the west has two payscales - f/o and captain - not one.

Second, a new pay scheme that puts all but a handful of east pilots at TOS while putting all but a handful of west pilots at lower (and for about half much lower) steps on the payscale has the same problem as DOH, which puts a handful of west pilots in the top third of the liist with the rest of that top third being east pilots and most west pilots lower (and in most cases much lower) on the list while only a few east pilots are in the bottom third. So it just switches the DFR from the seniority list to the pay scales.

Jim

 

[Move2CLT]

Since the west pilot group already works under one payscale for all equipment, how could they object?

Gee, with that line of deductive reasoning, you should have been a lawyer.

Wait, no, that was pretty stupid.

 

[HogDriver]

First, the west has two payscales - f/o and captain - not one.

Second, a new pay scheme that puts all but a handful of east pilots at TOS while putting all but a handful of west pilots at lower (and for about half much lower) steps on the payscale has the same problem as DOH, which puts a handful of west pilots in the top third of the liist with the rest of that top third being east pilots and most west pilots lower (and in most cases much lower) on the list while only a few east pilots are in the bottom third. So it just switches the DFR from the seniority list to the pay scales.

Jim

Not Sure I agree with that logic. First of all no one has designed just what those scales would look like yet. Second, if every pilot on the combined list gets a raise (even if minor) and can have full access to the entire pay range over time, I don't see how anyone is harmed. Just because a majority of east pilots are older and west are younger (who can earn more over the entire remaining length of their career) it is not one group dominating another. Again, i am looking for options that more fairly spread the pay for the entire group. The exisiting system only benefits pilots if there is movement. There will not be any growth anytime even in the distant future. Only attrition. If pay is rationalized then there will not be the fight for the few top spots.

Southwest, UPS, BA and others all operate very well this way with their pilots earning more over a long period of a career. We on the other hand are at the mercy of fleet make up, downsizing, ,mergers etc. I'm proposing equal pay for equal work. Why so hard to grasp that?

 

[BoeingBoy]

First of all no one has designed just what those scales would look like yet. Second, if every pilot on the combined list gets a raise (even if minor) and can have full access to the entire pay range over time, I don't see how anyone is harmed.

The second sentence undercuts the first. Giving every pilot a raise (even if minor) gives the outline of your proposal. The pilots with lower LOS make at least current pay and since it's coming up on 7 years since the merger that sets a floor on pay for at least 7 years. To keep increasing the pay for those with more LOS than the current 12 year scale sets a floor for them out ever how many years you care to go.

Just because a majority of east pilots are older and west are younger (who can earn more over the entire remaining length of their career) it is not one group dominating another.

Yet the same argument has been made for the SLI - the west willl get their turn being senior someday if they'll just be patient. Trying to implement something that primarily benefits east and primarily makes the west wait some number of years to benefit is what the last years of court battles have been about. As I've said, the overwhelming majority of the east pilots would benefit immediately from what you propose while the overwhelming majority of the west pilots would benefit very little until down the road somewhere. That, by itself, raises the DFR issue.

Southwest is a meaningless example since they only have one fleet type. Plus they have a limited scale like everyone else - 15 years.

UPS and FedEx have had their pay scheme for a long time and it isn't about redistributing the wealth as a result of a merger where one side didn't like the resulting SLI. Plus even they have a limited scale of 15 years.

And that is assuming that the company would be agreeable to paying the price, unless you offset a lot of the cost with cuts in other places. Then any cuts that fall predominately on the west is another DFR issue. In short, it's not a bad idea if you're starting an airline but fraught with peril if you try to do it in conjunction with a merger where one side has already tried to impose it's will on the other.

Jim