AAA ALPA Thread 9-7 to 9-13

[hp_fa]

The only thing certain about any future courtroom outcome...is it's uncertainty, and the fact that any court process tends to be rather time consuming at the very least.

While there is truth in what you say, the odds that East and USAPA are facing are odds that are far, far beyond what even a high risk gambler would consider betting odds.

Procedurally, I expect that any suit regarding the implementation of Nicolau stands a very high probability of being decided in a Motion for Summary Judgment (or even as early as a Motion for Judgment on the Pleadings) because the basic facts of the case will likely not be in material dispute. Therefore since no material issues of fact will likely be in dispute the Court will decide the case as a matter of law. The timing on this form of resolution could be as short as 6-9 months.

There is another aspect to consider. If West takes a legal position that East has breached a contract and West prevails with the Court, the Court could well award West a judgment that includes attorneys’ fees and costs if the Court were to find East's legal position in the underlying dispute to be frivolous or something akin to grossly unjustified. The possibility of this occurring is not a stretch of imagination.

 

[P51Pilot]

While there is truth in what you say, the odds that East and USAPA are facing are odds that are far, far beyond what even a high risk gambler would consider betting odds.

Procedurally, I expect that any suit regarding the implementation of Nicolau stands a very high probability of being decided in a Motion for Summary Judgment (or even as early as a Motion for Judgment on the Pleadings) because the basic facts of the case will likely not be in material dispute. Therefore since no material issues of fact will likely be in dispute the Court will decide the case as a matter of law. The timing on this form of resolution could be as short as 6-9 months.

There is another aspect to consider. If West takes a legal position that East has breached a contract and West prevails with the Court, the Court could well award West a judgment that includes attorneys’ fees and costs if the Court were to find East's legal position in the underlying dispute to be frivolous or something akin to grossly unjustified. The possibility of this occurring is not a stretch of imagination.

If ALPA wants to sit on its haunches and #### on how we all know seniority is defined and allow opportunism instead of unionism destroy any chance of seeing positive "pattern bargaining" post 9/11, they are going to get their wish. If people want to blame the East pilots, so be it. We'll gladly bear that cross for the principle of whats at stake and that is fighting the life long tradition of what representation ALPA gives or how policy is created as by whether you are Elephants or Ants and how it might affect the Elephants.

 

[767jetz]

... on how we all know seniority is defined ...

Here we go again. We do all know (have an opinion on) how seniority is defined. However your opinion of DOH/LOS is only an opinion, and not one held by a majority of pilots. Most pilots in this industry disagree and "know" otherwise.

 

[nostradamus]

Here we go again. We do all know (have an opinion on) how seniority is defined. However your opinion of DOH/LOS is only an opinion, and not one held by a majority of pilots. Most pilots in this industry disagree and "know" otherwise.

Based upon the DSM, Dr. Kimberly Young developed eight criteria to diagnose Internet addiction:

1. Do you feel preoccupied with the Internet (think about previous online activity or anticipate next online session)?

2. Do you feel the need to use the Internet with increasing amounts of time in order to achieve satisfaction?

3. Have you repeatedly made unsuccessful efforts to control, cut back, or stop Internet use?

4. Do you feel restless, moody, depressed, or irritable when attempting to cut down or stop Internet use?

5. Do you stay on-line longer than originally intended?

6. Have you jeopardized or risked the loss of significant relationship, job, educational or career opportunity because of the Internet?

7. Have you lied to family members, therapist, or others to conceal the extent of involvement with the Internet?

8. Do you use the Internet as a way of escaping from problems or of relieving a dysphoric mood (e.g., feelings of helplessness, guilt, anxiety, depression)?

Answering "yes" to five or more questions may mean you suffer from Internet addiction over a six month period and when not better accounted for by a manic episode. Internet addiction is a global problem and according to studies at the Center for Internet Addiction Recovery:

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Did your group not ratify every concessionary agreement put before them?

Dont blame the association, blame yourself and your fellow pilots who passed the concessions everytime.

Ratify? I am not sure of the exact number, but I can count on one hand the number of times I voted for an amendment LOA or CBA in the last 20+ years. At least I voted when given the chance.

I place all the blame on "our" association. Their rules as defined by the Constitution and ByLaws are supposed to govern, except when they become "guidelines". The pilots here are not to blame for all the concessions, most of the time we were not given a vote. When we were given one, for the most part it was a hard sell by our esteemed "Negotiators" that it was the best we could hope for. Nice spin, but it didn't work.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Here we go again. We do all know (have an opinion on) how seniority is defined. However your opinion of DOH/LOS is only an opinion, and not one held by a majority of pilots. Most pilots in this industry disagree and "know" otherwise.

Maybe the question should be...how should seniority be defined or better yet how should it be determined. Set aside the Nicolau award for a moment. Lets suppose ALPA decided to implement a national seniority list, finally giving it's pilots the lateral mobility they have been denied for so long.

What factors or criteria would you use to construct such a list? Of all the factors you consider, which would be the most important, the most unambiguous, the most cut and dry?

And make your decision from the stand point of a union member with a loyalty to profession and fellow pilot above loyalty to company.

You would have to consider each pilot's position, equipment, pay and benefits, career expectations and length of service. You would have to take into account whether he left his employer voluntarily or otherwise (fired, bankruptcy, etc.).

Of all these considerations, particularly in a craft union such as ours, length of service has got to be one of the most, if not the most important factor. It is easily quantifiable, unambiguous and fairly/equitably gives credit and rewards those who stepped into this line of work ahead of those who came later.

I know that many in our society stopped long ago to have respect or consideration for the elders among them. I am still naive enough to hope that this pilot profession has not succumbed to the cult of Britney Spears.

 

[ableoneable]

It would be ironic if the NMB determines that single carrier status does not apply and only the east decertifies.

If another merger occurs with an ALPA carrier, and west is ALPA and east is USAPA, the easties will end up stapled to the bottom of a combined list.

With respect to USA320's threats that if the west does not play nice and agree to "reasonable solutions" (ie. capitulation to east demands) that the west could end up on the bottom of a re-ordered list - He clearly demonstrates that he has no idea what he is talking about.

I do wonder what will happen when the Nicolau list is the list that we are all flying under. Will USA320 simply disapear from the boards or will he be talking up the enevitable lawsuit that a group of east pilots will no doubt file against everybody they can think of.

 

[700UW]

Ratify? I am not sure of the exact number, but I can count on one hand the number of times I voted for an amendment LOA or CBA in the last 20+ years. At least I voted when given the chance.

I place all the blame on "our" association. Their rules as defined by the Constitution and ByLaws are supposed to govern, except when they become "guidelines". The pilots here are not to blame for all the concessions, most of the time we were not given a vote. When we were given one, for the most part it was a hard sell by our esteemed "Negotiators" that it was the best we could hope for. Nice spin, but it didn't work.

You took two rounds of concessions in the first bankruptcy which you voted on both time.

The MEC gave away your pension without a vote.

You took one round of concessions in the second chapter 11 filing and you voted on it.

Seems to me you voted on every concession except the loss of the pension, after that occured you should have replaced your leadership, but yet you didnt.

Like I said you voted on every concession except the pension and every time it was ratified.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Based upon the DSM, Dr. Kimberly Young developed eight criteria to diagnose Internet addiction:

1. Do you feel preoccupied with the Internet (think about previous online activity or anticipate next online session)?

2. Do you feel the need to use the Internet with increasing amounts of time in order to achieve satisfaction?

3. Have you repeatedly made unsuccessful efforts to control, cut back, or stop Internet use?

4. Do you feel restless, moody, depressed, or irritable when attempting to cut down or stop Internet use?

5. Do you stay on-line longer than originally intended?

6. Have you jeopardized or risked the loss of significant relationship, job, educational or career opportunity because of the Internet?

7. Have you lied to family members, therapist, or others to conceal the extent of involvement with the Internet?

8. Do you use the Internet as a way of escaping from problems or of relieving a dysphoric mood (e.g., feelings of helplessness, guilt, anxiety, depression)?

Answering "yes" to five or more questions may mean you suffer from Internet addiction over a six month period and when not better accounted for by a manic episode. Internet addiction is a global problem and according to studies at the Center for Internet Addiction Recovery:

No but interacting with these AWA pilots on the web, I have started having this recurring dream.

In the dream I am standing on the deck of a large steam ship. It is night, we are in the North Atlantic, and icebergs drift by uncomfortably close to the ship.

A man standing next to me with long curly hair, his name is George Armstrong, is speaking to me of car rentals and hands me a brochure from Alamo.

Behind us 300 Greek musicians are performing, but instead of musical instruments they strike their shields with their spears while shouting banzai over and over.

Then I wake up.

 

[ableoneable]

Maybe the question should be...how should seniority be defined or better yet how should it be determined. Set aside the Nicolau award for a moment. Lets suppose ALPA decided to implement a national seniority list, finally giving it's pilots the lateral mobility they have been denied for so long.

What factors or criteria would you use to construct such a list? Of all the factors you consider, which would be the most important, the most unambiguous, the most cut and dry?

And make your decision from the stand point of a union member with a loyalty to profession and fellow pilot above loyalty to company.

You would have to consider each pilot's position, equipment, pay and benefits, career expectations and length of service. You would have to take into account whether he left his employer voluntarily or otherwise (fired, bankruptcy, etc.).

Of all these considerations, particularly in a craft union such as ours, length of service has got to be one of the most, if not the most important factor. It is easily quantifiable, unambiguous and fairly/equitably gives credit and rewards those who stepped into this line of work ahead of those who came later.

I know that many in our society stopped long ago to have respect or consideration for the elders among them. I am still naive enough to hope that this pilot profession has not succumbed to the cult of Britney Spears.

The national list would only work if ALPA was the sole source of airline pilots. If a new carrier were to start up they would be compelled to visit the ALPA shop to get their flightcrews. (Much like carpenters in NYC. etc.)

Had ALPA been extremely far sighted, lucky and politically savvy fifty to sixty years ago, they might have been able to pull this off.

It can't work now though. Say a new carrier (Virgin, JetBlue, Skybus - whatever) cranks up and hires off the street. Maybie five years goes by and they go union.

They would have to be insane to join a union who's first order of business would be to tell them; "Welcome to ALPA, your national sen numbers will be determined by your DOH at X airways. By the way this makes you junior to everyone else on the planet. Therefore you can expect to be bumped out of your CA seats and you FOs can expect to move to lesser equipment at crapper bases during the next ecenomic downcyclce when pilots from our other carriers will decend life vultures on your stupid asses. Keep that dues money rolling in and welcome aboard!"

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Here we go again. We do all know (have an opinion on) how seniority is defined. However your opinion of DOH/LOS is only an opinion, and not one held by a majority of pilots. Most pilots in this industry disagree and "know" otherwise.

Unbelievable, you're like a politician claiming 51% is a landslide victory. How many pilots outside our airlines have you talked to? 50?100?500? maybe 5000 then? It still wouldn't even come close to a majority. So your statement is an opinion. You get yours but we are not entitled to ours?

I sat next to one of "your" pilots 2 weeks ago and he couldn't believe what happened. After showing him the award and the Prater letters, even he could see the end of ALPA at US and possibly ALPA National. The war's not coming, its here. But then I'm entitled to my opinion also, am I not?

 

[AAA73Pilot]

You took two rounds of concessions in the first bankruptcy which you voted on both time.

The MEC gave away your pension without a vote.

You took one round of concessions in the second chapter 11 filing and you voted on it.

Seems to me you voted on every concession except the loss of the pension, after that occured you should have replaced your leadership, but yet you didnt.

Like I said you voted on every concession except the pension and every time it was ratified.

Ratify or imposition? Still a lose, lose. However, it's still on one hand in 20 + years. There is one more so that's four. Not a lot of voting in my book. Each one under different MEC leaders. So recall? Wouldn't have done any good. And each one operated under the full fledged support of ALPA National.

Had one LEC leader say to me "Look how many jobs we saved". I think what he meant to say is "Look how much dues money we protected".

 

[700UW]

Bottom line is you voted on all your CBAs and concessions, you and your fellow pilots ratified them, not the MEC.

The MEC that gave away your pension without a vote should have been recalled and barred from every holding office.

 

[Piedmont1984]

The national list would only work if ALPA was the sole source of airline pilots. If a new carrier were to start up they would be compelled to visit the ALPA shop to get their flightcrews. (Much like carpenters in NYC. etc.)

Had ALPA been extremely far sighted, lucky and politically savvy fifty to sixty years ago, they might have been able to pull this off.

It can't work now though. Say a new carrier (Virgin, JetBlue, Skybus - whatever) cranks up and hires off the street. Maybie five years goes by and they go union.

They would have to be insane to join a union who's first order of business would be to tell them; "Welcome to ALPA, your national sen numbers will be determined by your DOH at X airways. By the way this makes you junior to everyone else on the planet. Therefore you can expect to be bumped out of your CA seats and you FOs can expect to move to lesser equipment at crapper bases during the next ecenomic downcyclce when pilots from our other carriers will decend life vultures on your stupid asses. Keep that dues money rolling in and welcome aboard!"

Yeah but you could tweak the requirements, higher dues for a few years to catch up. Maybe Part 121 length of service can be factored in. Otherwise these (Virgin, JetBlue, etc) pilots will always be junior to everyone should they choose or be forced to go to another carrier.

 

[ableoneable]

Unbelievable, you're like a politician claiming 51% is a landslide victory. How many pilots outside our airlines have you talked to? 50?100?500? maybe 5000 then? It still wouldn't even come close to a majority. So your statement is an opinion. You get yours but we are not entitled to ours?

I sat next to one of "your" pilots 2 weeks ago and he couldn't believe what happened. After showing him the award and the Prater letters, even he could see the end of ALPA at US and possibly ALPA National. The war's not coming, its here. But then I'm entitled to my opinion also, am I not?

I am sure that you gave this UAL guy an unbiased, fair presentation of the award. Did you mention that you felt that because you had been screwed over the last five years that you thought the west guys should pay for it all?

You keep ignoring that the west brought seats and jobs. It is unconcionable that you think it is fair and right to generate a seniority list that essentially makes a furloughed pilot and an employed pilot exchage places.

This is exactly what east proposed. After the twelve month re-furlough window closed all of the east furloughees would have been senior to west pilot who showed up to the party with a seat.

I never applied to USAir because they never looked very healthy. I remember back in 97 AWA was hiring and USAir still had guys on the street. There were pilots here who considered sending in an app when US started hiring, because of basing etc, but they decided they were much better off in case of a downturn staying put.

A merger should not be an opportunity to unload your bad luck onto someone else. This is essentially what the east was attemting to accomplish.

Had your MEC not had their heads up their posterior they would have actually negotiated. You would not have gotten DOH/LOS but you certainly might have ended up with extremely long wide body fences. Your MEC chose to spit in the wind. You will now pay the price.