AWA Alpa thread 11/2-11-8

[Edward]

Here is the new thread. Please stay on topic. No personal attacks or name calling. Thank you.

 

[nycbusdriver]

I can well imagine the conversation and commentary on the west side, and I'm certain that it's equally, or yet more toxic out here in reverse. The situation lends itself handilly to brewing up some pretty high level emotional responses from all concerned. Civilitiy's hardly likely to be maintained at any record highs during these kinds of things, and isn't anything to fret much about.

I'd hope that any with good sense will take the time to cherish their families and friends during the holidays, regardless of the current labor strife. The latter's nothing to take home and poison family festivities with.

Actually, I find that the conversation and commentary here on the east has pretty much settled down as it relates to the west pilots. We pretty much know where we stand and we are fully aware of the west pilots expectation of cashing in their lottery ticket.

I think that, as a group, we have mostly realized that expending our energies in slinging mud at the west accomplishes nothing. Nothing either side can say at this point will change either side's opinion, so why bother?

While the west sees the lottery ticket, the east realizes that the big game is more along the lines of a chess match. We are comfortable with our position, and we will simply play it out. We are fully aware that there are no guarantees even in a well-played chess match, but we are also aware that resigning the match early is a huge error in strategy.

The west pilots love to keep pointing out that the game was over on May 5, but they fail to notice that here we all are 6 months later still moving pieces on the board. How can that be if the game was over back in May? The west is furious that the east will not simply resign the match. What they don't understand is that we've been there, done that, so many times in the past few years and retrospectively found that our game was stronger than ALPA national "advised" and we got burned in the process. Now we are calmly and systematically playing the match out to a checkmate, no matter what that looks like when the match is over, or possibly a draw. We are done with advice from ALPA national "experts" who have only the interests of the ALPA national machine in their purview. We are playing for our own interests, ALPA "brotherhood" be d**ned.

I know I'm mixing metaphors here, but the fat lady hasn't even left for the opera house yet.

 

[exB717Flyer]

How can that be if the game was over back in May? The west is furious that the east will not simply resign the match.

You don't have to resign the match because it was over in May. Denial is more than just a river in Egypt. The arbitration hearings were the game (Remember the Transcripts!) and Nicolau's decision was the final move: a draw.

Enough with the metaphors. I'd like to try to discuss something real: why do you (or any Eastie) think Nicolau ruled the way he did? And don't give me any santimonious crap about him being senile. Both merger committees spent weeks with him without complaint (read the transcripts!). He carefully explained his reasoning in his Award and the pilot neutrals praised him with only one dissenting opinion (they weren't required to agree with him).

 

[b737fo]

We pretty much know where we stand and we are fully aware of the west pilots expectation of cashing in their lottery ticket.

So curiosity got the better of me. After being away for a couple of months I decided to come back here and see what is happening on these boards. Maybe I was completely delusional to believe that things might have changed.

"Lottery ticket"? What a joke.

As EastUS would say: A never ending source of amusement.

See you chaps later. Sorry I wasted my time here AGAIN...

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

'Yea, pity those poor westies. They are outclassed and just don't realize it, simply not bright enough to match wits with us easties and our vast experience'. That sounds alot like the Bagdad Bob type updates the east fellow put out during the merger hearings with Nicolau and his comittee, was that you NYC?

 

[EastUS]

Actually, I find that the conversation and commentary here on the east has pretty much settled down as it relates to the west pilots. We pretty much know where we stand and we are fully aware of the west pilots expectation of cashing in their lottery ticket.

I think that, as a group, we have mostly realized that expending our energies in slinging mud at the west accomplishes nothing. Nothing either side can say at this point will change either side's opinion, so why bother?

While the west sees the lottery ticket, the east realizes that the big game is more along the lines of a chess match. We are comfortable with our position, and we will simply play it out. We are fully aware that there are no guarantees even in a well-played chess match, but we are also aware that resigning the match early is a huge error in strategy.

The west pilots love to keep pointing out that the game was over on May 5, but they fail to notice that here we all are 6 months later still moving pieces on the board. How can that be if the game was over back in May? The west is furious that the east will not simply resign the match. What they don't understand is that we've been there, done that, so many times in the past few years and retrospectively found that our game was stronger than ALPA national "advised" and we got burned in the process. Now we are calmly and systematically playing the match out to a checkmate, no matter what that looks like when the match is over, or possibly a draw. We are done with advice from ALPA national "experts" who have only the interests of the ALPA national machine in their purview. We are playing for our own interests, ALPA "brotherhood" be d**ned.

I know I'm mixing metaphors here, but the fat lady hasn't even left for the opera house yet.

After some reflection; I agree that the conversation out east has become less acidic overall, and more toned with feelings of just being in this fracas for the long haul. As pointed out by upper management; nothing's going to happen unless/untill a joint contract's resolved in any case. I think that some sense of comfort's grown that any contract's fully dependant on east's willingness to sign off, and that's hardly likely as things stand with the Nic nonsense. The more emotionally charged west postings seem to indicate a growing frustration with not receiving the St Nic gift yet, and becoming aware of the fact that there's actually no way they can force it on the east with just a total of 1800 or so people voting. I notice that it took no time for west postings of the standard "It's over" nonsense, or attempted justifications for Nic to show up, which is indicative of the fact that many, perhaps most out west.....just don't get it yet.

This is going to take some good amount of time to work through.

 

[luvn737s]

Why doesn't Parker see that his problems would be over if he kept PHL and the widebodies and spun the rest of the east off to Air Tran?

Or Mesa.

 

[ALCARLOS]

Why doesn't Parker see that his problems would be over if he kept PHL and the widebodies and spun the rest of the east off to Air Tran?

Could he just buy Air Tran?

 

[nycbusdriver]

I'll make it really simple for those who need it that way:

If it's really over, then there is nothing left to discuss. So why are we having this discussion?

 

[sharktooth]

and the pilot neutrals praised him with only one dissenting opinion (they weren't required to agree with him).

There were only two neutrals.

One praised him, naturally the UAL dude, who saw, due to the award that the inevitable merger with UAL would elevate him to a windfall.

The other, a CAL dude, basically said, the arbitrator is senile.

 

[Barberpole]

There were only two neutrals.

One praised him, naturally the UAL dude, who saw, due to the award that the inevitable merger with UAL would elevate him to a windfall.

The other, a CAL dude, basically said, the arbitrator is senile.

No he didn't. Either your reading comprehension is at the 1st grade level or you didn't read the opinions. The CAL pilot praised Nic and stated that he did a great job. He disagreed over the placement of the recalled pilots who had been recalled since the merger was anounced. He termed it a MINOR dissenting opinion. He said nothing about disagreeing with relative seniority or putting the remaining furloughed pilots on the bottom. But if it makes you feel better you can think whatever you want to...

 

[EastUS]

No he didn't. Either your reading comprehension is at the 1st grade level or you didn't read the opinions. The CAL pilot praised Nic and stated that he did a great job. He disagreed over the placement of the recalled pilots who had been recalled since the merger was anounced. He termed it a MINOR dissenting opinion. He said nothing about disagreeing with relative seniority or putting the remaining furloughed pilots on the bottom. But if it makes you feel better you can think whatever you want to...

None of which matters in the least, regardless of how one views the Nic mess. Nic's been argued over for half a year now, and whether or not he was snorting heroin at the time whilst dressed in a kilt and swim fins, or acting with the sage wisdom of the ages, means nothing to the current situation. The situation is that a minority's seeking to impose it's will/Nic on the majority, and only a unified contract even opens the door for anything of the sort to ever actually happen.

 

[exB717Flyer]

The other, a CAL dude, basically said, the arbitrator is senile.

This is so easy it's almost unfair. Quote from the Nicolau Award:

"Finally I would like to a reaffirm my opinion that the Chairman Nicolau
demonstrated exceptional judgment and wisdom working through many very difficult and

challenging issues including the disparate aircraft types, routes, compensation systems,
and pilot staffing formulas to mention just a few. It has been a privilege to work together with Chairman Nicolau and Captain Gillen on this Opinion and Award.

Dated: May 1, 2007

Captain James P Brucia
Pilot Neutral "


My college degree is in engineering, not English, so perhaps you can point out to me exactly where he called Nicolau senile? I won't be waiting for answer since I already know it.

 

[AAA73Pilot]

Captain James P Brucia
Pilot Neutral "

What is important is what's not written. So unless you know him personally or were in on the post award briefing, just keep quoting what you want. It doesn't change opinions.

 

[traderjake]

We're not senile, we're just blinded by our own greed and stupidity.

We are comfortable with our position, and we will simply play it out.

Sound very much like what we told the arbitrator when he told us to "seriously reconsider our position".