AFA topic 9/28-11/1 Do NOT make it personal

[safety stud]

aredeeyou22,

You are right on, with the fact that the pilot group has not negotiatied fairly with regards to the f/A group. However, the M-T clause is a multi-million dollar negotiating tool that allows both groups to negotiate their contracts. Seperating from the clause is only do-able if we, the F/A group gains the advantage. Our negotiating team along with the company want us to seperate so they can gain further control on our ability to fly. Do you actually think the company will negotiate the same duty rigs that are present in our contract on the east. Even though they limit us to being able to fly as the west. Wether we fly 10 hour one days or have the RES system change is only as good as what the group negotiates. You cant assume the group will get the same rigs the west has until it is negotiated.

I am not afraid of change. I am afraid that the union will make a rash decission that will have far reaching consequences down the road. Change is a good thing. Change allows the contract to evolve to something better. As long as I personally gain from the change, I have no problem with it. However, the question is wether the change is good for all of us, not just the few that would take advantage of the extra long days...

Look not what is just in front of you, but look beyond tor what you can't see...

Just my opinion...

 

[aredeeyou22]

aredeeyou22,

You are right on, with the fact that the pilot group has not negotiatied fairly with regards to the f/A group. However, the M-T clause is a multi-million dollar negotiating tool that allows both groups to negotiate their contracts. Seperating from the clause is only do-able if we, the F/A group gains the advantage. Our negotiating team along with the company want us to seperate so they can gain further control on our ability to fly. Do you actually think the company will negotiate the same duty rigs that are present in our contract on the east. Even though they limit us to being able to fly as the west. Wether we fly 10 hour one days or have the RES system change is only as good as what the group negotiates. You cant assume the group will get the same rigs the west has until it is negotiated.

I am not afraid of change. I am afraid that the union will make a rash decission that will have far reaching consequences down the road. Change is a good thing. Change allows the contract to evolve to something better. As long as I personally gain from the change, I have no problem with it. However, the question is wether the change is good for all of us, not just the few that would take advantage of the extra long days...

Look not what is just in front of you, but look beyond tor what you can't see...

Just my opinion...

Sounds to me like we are arguing the same thing, and I certainly respect your opinion. Of course, the "multi- million" dollare Me 2 clause should not be given away. If the price tag is as high on the ME2 as you say, we certainly should be able to negotiate rigs that are better than what we have now! If the Company wants the flexibility of scheduling us without the pilots, they will pay for it, and they will pay for it not only with $$$, but with scheduling restrictions, rigs, PRODUCTIVE pairings, and rigid protections.

Don't misunderstand me: I am not willing to "sell" the ME2 for anything less than it is worth. I just think it is worth taking a look at dumping it, so the FA's can receive improvements they deserve. But you are right; the negotiating team needs to stand tough. The "protections" the ME2 offers us are largely a thing of the past.

 

[theFLYonthewall]

Sounds to me like we are arguing the same thing, and I certainly respect your opinion. Of course, the "multi- million" dollare Me 2 clause should not be given away. If the price tag is as high on the ME2 as you say, we certainly should be able to negotiate rigs that are better than what we have now! If the Company wants the flexibility of scheduling us without the pilots, they will pay for it, and they will pay for it not only with $$$, but with scheduling restrictions, rigs, PRODUCTIVE pairings, and rigid protections.

Don't misunderstand me: I am not willing to "sell" the ME2 for anything less than it is worth. I just think it is worth taking a look at dumping it, so the FA's can receive improvements they deserve. But you are right; the negotiating team needs to stand tough. The "protections" the ME2 offers us are largely a thing of the past.

The flight attendants will not get improvements, they will work the hell out of us. That is why very few airlines have their flight crews tied together. Some may call it being more productive or some may call it getting screwed.

I am not willing to give up the Me too, not unless there is a big price tag attached to it. I am not just talking about more dollars on the hour. I want better duty rigs, I want better vacation and pay, I want more flexiblity, I want 100% sick pay and credit, I want 5 hours pay and credit for training, and I want a pay raise. If eliminating the me too can bring increases to all of those things, then I'd consider it. If not they can shove it.

 

[N903AW]

You are obviously a pilot on the WEST. So let me let set you down to what I think will happen...

I have no idea where that assumption came from! Although I am a licensed pilot and I am on the West, I am a Flight Attendant.

Your question if I am willing to wait for a pilot contract has no bearing on me. The east F/A group is under a contract that is not up for re-newal until 2012.

The duration of your current contract was not MY decision - you can only hold yourselves (the majority that voted it in) responsible for that. Cry me a river some other time. The West contract has been up for renewal since 2003. Thanks to the West contract being up for renewal, the East has been given the ability to negotiate a single contract with the West without having to wait until 2012.

Sorry for seeming selfish, but many of us on the West still locked into our 1999 Contract would rather not wait until 2012 + negotiating more years to satisfy only one side (the East).

Since the east far outnumbers the west, its a numbers game on this issue.

Well, now the TRUE colors have been revealed. Although we are all represented by AFA and trying to negotiate a single contract, you have more in common with USAPA than I thought. Throw the West Flight Attendants under the bus for your own personal gains because you outnumber us. Only negotiate what benefits the East while the West can "take it or leave it!" Great. :down:

Further, the east F/A's far outnumber the west on this issue and will not give up anything that detracts for any issue that wont give us a positive gain in our future.

To my fellow West Fas, just in case you didn't get it the first time! Now can you see why we should have gone Section 6 with our own contract negotiations in 2005?? :down:

 

[aredeeyou22]

The flight attendants will not get improvements, they will work the hell out of us.

That's the spirit! The feeling of defeat already.... Not if we vote NO on a horrid contract. If people are so upset as they say they are on here and on the jumpseat, it should be no problem voting NO on a concessionary, substandard contract. And frankly, I'd rather they WORK ME WHILE I AM AT WORK as opposed to giving me 13 hours for a 3 day to Shannon. Remember, we are here to work?

That is why very few airlines have their flight crews tied together. Some may call it being more productive or some may call it getting screwed.

True, and we have a great bargaining tool, it's called the ME2 clause. As I have said previously, with the proper conditions and restriction, we will not be "screwed"; we would be able to separate from the pilots and fly more productive trips. I don't really care what other airlines do or did, I want a strong contract negotiated, and if it is done correctly, separating from the pilots is not the end of the world! Aside from the 8 hour flight rule, what exactly are these precious pilots protecting us from anymore? Come on...

I am not willing to give up the Me too, not unless there is a big price tag attached to it. I am not just talking about more dollars on the hour. I want better duty rigs, I want better vacation and pay, I want more flexiblity, I want 100% sick pay and credit, I want 5 hours pay and credit for training, and I want a pay raise. If eliminating the me too can bring increases to all of those things, then I'd consider it. If not they can shove it.

Exactly what I have said above. Again, fighting for the same thing, just different wording.

 

[aredeeyou22]

Well, now the TRUE colors have been revealed. Although we are all represented by AFA and trying to negotiate a single contract, you have more in common with USAPA than I thought. Throw the West Flight Attendants under the bus for your own personal gains because you outnumber us. Only negotiate what benefits the East while the West can "take it or leave it!" Great. :down:



To my fellow West Fas, just in case you didn't get it the first time! Now can you see why we should have gone Section 6 with our own contract negotiations in 2005?? :down:

Let's not do an East v West thing again...

I think we are all saying the same thing here, just differently, 903AW. Whether we keep the ME2 or lose the ME2, FA's want a fair, improved contract that allows for a quality of life that people can actually live on. I am all for losing the ME2 if the negotiating team secures us the proper protections and work rules needed to make that work, as I feel the pilots on the East have negotiated away (thru ALPA) many of the great enhancements and protections the ME2 allowed us to enjoy. I agree with safetystud that the ME2 is a big thing to lose, and I am sure that the negotiators know that. Now, let's see what they come up with.

 

[N903AW]

Let's not do an East v West thing again...

I think we are all saying the same thing here, just differently, 903AW. Whether we keep the ME2 or lose the ME2, FA's want a fair, improved contract that allows for a quality of life that people can actually live on.

My sentiments exactly. I am getting the impression from others that they are willing to wait until 2012 + years of more negotiations + a Pilot Agreement (ad infinitum) in order to retain the current "ME2" clause. Personally, I just don't want to wait that long when we have the ability to negotiate for improvements, pay increases, enhancements and protections you mention RIGHT NOW.

I have faith in our negotiation team that are currently working on our present contract. I have faith that they are working on an agreement that will benefit all of us, East and West, for years to come.

What worries me is the day we have negotiated contract with all the improvements you mention to vote on. The only thing missing from said contract is the ME2 clause because it would require waiting for years until the Pilots to come to an agreement. Are the majority (numbers prevail as mentioned by safety stud) of the East going to shoot down a contract that would provide gains for everyone just to be with their pilots? For the love of God, I hope that the majority of you (not you personally aredeeyou, as you have been the ONLY one from the East posting here that has addressed this issue rationally) are not that nearsighted.

 

[safety stud]

There are many issues to be resolved with the combined contract. You take the best of the west, the best of the east, and negotiate a combined CBA. The issues of the M-T are included within the realm of the agreement. Had you read my past posts on the M-T clause, you would see I am not the biggest fan of the clause. I however, know this is the biggest barganing chip we have in our arsenol. This is something the west doesn't have. When you have a tool that effects two different unions, the ability to negotiate a better deal comes with this colateral. As I have stated in the past, I will only give up the M-T only if I recieve substantial gains from not having it.

You must also remember, The company will not negotiate the AFA contract until the pilots have theirs. The pilot contract has the biggest piece of the proverbial pie. In all the mergers I have been through the F/A contract was the last to be negotiated.

This is not and will not ever be an east/west issue. So don't make it one. AFA is only as strong as its members. United we stand a better chance of getting a lucritive contract. I am sorry you are under a 1999 working contract. However, the east went through 2 BK's and took a much more substantial hit than you have had to endure for the last 9 years. We both have issues...So let your negotiating teams know what you want and aren't going to accept anything less.

If I have made you feel the west will take second place to the east you are very mistaken. Our membership is it's strength...Both east and west. What helps one had better help the other or I will vote NO. Simple...

Pilot issues are Pilot issues....
Flight Attendant issues are Flight Attendant issues...
Please don't confuse the two and brand us as one in the same... We aren't...

Just my opinion...

 

[flybynite]

I'm not willing to give up the Me-too clause for the very reason that there are a number of flight attendants out there that will not and will never learn their contract.

We could negotiate 'til the cows come home yet we'll still have f/a's who won't follow their contract. Shoot...we have that problem now. I've talked to more than a few that have been hoo-dooed into going into a 16 hr duty day. 😱

Oh, and we don't have to wait on the pilots. What we get...they get too.

 

[NoMoreKoolAid]

In Philly International they have no clue about their contract and operations or inflight tries to intimidate crews into flying illegal per contract. The pilots can go to 18 but we only have to go to 16. Read your contract. I will ground an aircraft in Europe as soon as blink. Fix your planes US Airways and stop threatening crews with discipline if they don't violate contracts.

 

[N903AW]

In Philly International they have no clue about their contract and operations or inflight tries to intimidate crews into flying illegal per contract. The pilots can go to 18 but we only have to go to 16. Read your contract. I will ground an aircraft in Europe as soon as blink. Fix your planes US Airways and stop threatening crews with discipline if they don't violate contracts.

Now this REALLY surprises me. I thought that PHL based FAs had the toughest skin of all of us and would never, and I do mean NEVER, deviate from their contract. Is what you're describing a small few or is this a big problem? As for Inflight Services, their mantra is to lead the Flight Attendant workforce through fear and intimidation. Same goes for Scheduling, although we have noticed significantly less attempts to violate the contract since they moved operations to Pittsburgh.

Our contract on the West allows a maximum of 14.5 hours of duty (domestic). Once we are projected to exceed 14.5 hours we have the ability to choose whether to exceed the duty day over 14.5 for an incentive or walk. In the past, and I do mean way back, we would volunteer to exceed 14.5 for the added 7 credits of incentive. Then came the drawbacks. The majority of the time we would have to fight with timekeeping to pay us the incentive we were due. Sometimes this would take weeks. Then, to add insult to injury, when we receive the additional 7 hour incentive we are taxed as if it were a "bonus" or "gift" from the company. Taxes deducted from the incentive are around 45 to 50 percent so instead of gaining 7 hours credit you are only earning approximately 3.5 hours incentive.

I laugh that the company taxes us this way! It's like they are doing the Flight Attendant a favor with this incentive when we have essentially kept one of their flights from being canceled and have saved them literally thousands of dollars in reacommodation costs!

Well, this is not the mindset here anymore...the vast majority of us will no longer exceed our 14.5 hour duty day, even if it means stranding passengers and an aircraft in Bumblebutt, Idaho. And all it takes is one FA to refuse due to minimum staffing. Even if my three other crewmembers on a 757 were willing to work over 14.5, which is rare, I will simply say NO and walk....operation be damned.

 

[NoMoreKoolAid]

I said they tried. But they failed almost every time and the flights canceled. Which they would have canceled anyway but, the girls stood their ground and told in-flight to go get bent and learn how to read. Every flight attendant should have a contract and know where to look up certain things. In-flight has proven that they can't read much less spell check a manual revision. There was a crew last December that got jacked around in Manchester UK for almost 5 days with 330 parts no one could find and it got ridiculous. Half the cabin crew told them on day 4 to go pound sand and non reved home to be with family during the holidays. No argument with the contract, because the company was just like 16 blubbering idiots putting together a crossword.

 

[songbirdstew]

Sorry to butt in on a very good topic but since this is an AFA thread, when do you think AFA was going to mention that as of September 12th, we are now back to DOH for pass riding. This was sent to me and is on The Hub in the middle of the page under "Latest News." I love the way this company acts like we HAD to go year of hire because the "technology was not able to allow for this functionality at the time."

They've got to be kidding !!!!! Don't they remember having their own e-mail address row28@usairways.com or something like that while both sides hashed this out ???? They must think we have all lost our memories! Why can't they just admit that because the West won their grievance, they knew the East would win too. Just another example of the ineptitude of this management and yet another example of the fact that they think we are morons. Shame on them yet again.



Non-Rev Travel Enhanced

September 12, 2008

At the beginning of 2007, when we announced the airline’s combined non-rev boarding policy
would be by date of hire, employees asked why we would only process by year of hire and not
date of hire.

Even though at that time we would have preferred to process by date of hire, our technology was
not able to allow for this functionality at the time. Over the past several months our IT department
has been working hard to update our technology to allow for this capability and we’re on track to
begin handling boarding priority for non-revenue passengers based on year/month/ day of hire
rather than solely year of hire (as it is currently) by early next year.

Here’s an example to show you how it will work: If an employee was hired Aug. 12, 1988, their
boarding priority will be listed as SA3P880812. Their priority would be higher than someone who
was hired Sept. 12, 1988. If two non-revs with the same exact hire date happen to be listed for
the same flight, time of check in will determine who is first on the list. This new date of hire
information will be listed in the employee’s profile in the Employee Travel Center (ETC).

You won’t need to do anything now as a result of today’s announcement. The programming
changes and follow-up testing will be taking place over the next several months and we’ll provide
more details as they become available.

As always, if you have any travel-related questions, please contact
Employee.Travel@usairways.com.



Go to the HUB, print a copy and start to carry it with you. The agents probably haven't even been informed about this.

 

[InternationalShannon]

I found this on facebook. I thought you guys would have a laugh. LOVE YOU.

Dear co-worker:

The airline industry is in a crisis. Its business model doesn't
work with the current price of fuel and the existing level of capacity
in the marketplace. We need to make changes in response.
While there have been several successful fare increases, those
increases haven't been sufficient to cover the rising cost of fuel. As
fares increase, fewer customers will fly. As fewer customers fly, we
will need to reduce our capacity to match the reduced demand. As we
reduce our capacity, we will need fewer employees to operate the
airline. Although these changes will be painful, we must adapt to the
reality of today's market to successfully navigate these difficult
times.

Therefore, a program to phase out the more senior flight attendants
by the end of the current fiscal year, via retirement, will be placed
into effect immediately. Under this plan, senior fa's will be asked to
take early retirement, thus permitting the retention of the new-hires
who represent our future. This program will be known as SLAP (Sever
Late-Aged Personnel). Flight attendants who are SLAPPED will be given
the opportunity to look for jobs outside the company. SLAPPED FA's can
request a review of their employment records before actual retirement
takes place. This review phase of the program is called SCREW (Survey
of Capabilities of Retired Early Workers). All FA's who have been
SLAPPED and SCREWED may file an appeal with upper management. This
appeal is called SHAFT (Study by Higher Authority Following
Termination). Under the terms of the new policy, an FA may be SLAPPED
once, SCREWED twice, but may be SHAFTED as many times as the company
deems appropriate.
If an FA follows the above procedure, he/she will be entitled to
get: HERPES (Half Earnings for Retired Personnel's Early Severance) or
CLAP (Combined Lump sum Assistance Payment). As HERPES and CLAP are
considered benefit plans, any FA who has received HERPES or CLAP will
no longer be SLAPPED or SCREWED by the company.

Management wishes to assure the younger flight attendants who
remain on board that the company will continue its policy of training
FA's through our:
Special High Intensity Training (####). We take pride in the amount of
#### our FA's receive. We have given our FA's more #### than any
company in this area. If any FA feels they do not receive enough ####
on the job, see your Inflight Supervisor. Your Inflight Supervisor is
specially trained to make sure you receive all the #### you can handle.
And, once again, thanks for all your years of service with us.

 

[flybynite]

LOL