Alpa Provides Proposal To Management

[PITbull]

Jeez, where did I say US employees? I don't have a clue what goes on in CCY, nor do I really care. I'm speaking totally from my own experience, where working 75-80 hours/week is norm. I should know better than to have this discussion yet again on this board ... it's not worth the time.

Before you sign off, read your post again. Neither I nor you referred to USAirways employees.

You stated..."salaried employees in the US".

We were referring to the same thing.

You see, somethimes, not often, I don't always refer to U management in my postings.

I gave them a short break this time.

 

[mweiss]

Delta's pilots ARE unionized, and are a huge group.

Good point. I guess I should have said flight attendant unions are not necessary at airlines.

 

[Bear96]

Except, apparently, for Delta.

Surely even you can realize that non-unionized airlines / work groups owe everything they have in terms of compensation and work rules to the unionized groups at other airlines.

And, even more importantly, the passenger flying on a non-union carrier owes a lot in terms of getting safely from Point A to Point B (and things like no smoking in the cabins) to the work unions at other carriers have done over the decades.

I guess it depends on how you define "necessary." It should be obvious-- even to someone who has such a strange hatred of and so many misconceptions about unions as you do-- that to achieve the level of safety we have achieved in the industry, and to achieve the wages and benefits that have made airline jobs attractive to qualified applicants over the years, it has been "necessary" to have unions in the industry as a whole, even if you can point to a non-unionized airline employee here or there.

 

[mweiss]

Surely even you can realize that non-unionized airlines / work groups owe everything they have in terms of compensation and work rules to the unionized groups at other airlines.

Much, not everything. But, sure, they did a great deal for the industry working conditions in the pre-dereg days.

And, even more importantly, the passenger flying on a non-union carrier owes a lot in terms of getting safely from Point A to Point B (and things like no smoking in the cabins) to the work unions at other carriers have done over the decades.

You're overstating this one. The prohibition of smoking in the cabins happened in no small part because there were antismoking movements already taking hold on the ground. The unions played a part, but by no means were they the sine qua non of nonsmoking. Similarly, the amount of bad press that comes from deaths on commercial aircraft has a substantial impact on industry safety. Do you think it was a union that caused the 737 rudder to be reengineered?

someone who has such a strange hatred of and so many misconceptions about unions as you do

I have no hatred of unions. None. I think they're productive at times, and counterproductive at others. That hardly can manifest itself in hatred. That I point out their various degrees of ineffectiveness to those who believe that the sun rises and sets on union leaders is hardly an indication of hatred.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

I have no hatred of unions. None. I think they're productive at times, and counterproductive at others.

Well now isn't that true of most organizations and people for that matter?

 

[mweiss]

Well now isn't that true of most organizations and people for that matter?

Absolutely. I just don't see much point posting a whole lot about good things the unions do...there are plenty of others around here who carry that standard.

 

[700UW]

You're overstating this one. The prohibition of smoking in the cabins happened in no small part because there were antismoking movements already taking hold on the ground. The unions played a part, but by no means were they the sine qua non of nonsmoking. Similarly, the amount of bad press that comes from deaths on commercial aircraft has a substantial impact on industry safety. Do you think it was a union that caused the 737 rudder to be reengineered?

I have no hatred of unions. None. I think they're productive at times, and counterproductive at others. That hardly can manifest itself in hatred. That I point out their various degrees of ineffectiveness to those who believe that the sun rises and sets on union leaders is hardly an indication of hatred.

The IAM Flight Safety Committee ( the only unionized workers in the industry for mechanics that are invited and part of the NTSB investigations) did have input.

And hmm, who represents the majority of the Boeing workers, IAM and the engineers are SEEPA.

Boy mwiess, you sure dont like unions and try to slight them at every opportunity.

And the AFA was very involved in getting smoking ceased on commercial airlines.

Anything else you care for me to enlighten you on?

 

[mweiss]

Anything else you care for me to enlighten you on?

Sure. Care to enlighten me on why you either didn't read what I wrote or decided to respond to something I didn't write as if I did?

I said

The unions played a part, but by no means were they the sine qua non of nonsmoking.

and

Do you think it was a union that caused the 737 rudder to be reengineered?

Are you trying to tell me that those things would have happened if nobody cared except the unions? Because I'm telling you that these things would have happened anyway. Even if there weren't any unions at all.

 

[Light Years]

;;;;;;

 

[PITbull]

Bob,

First of all, nobody asked you about you.

Second, you are in positions that you can advance in. The average unionized worker, there is no advancement, therefore, the contract provides for increases to wages and benefit improvements. SO, our working arrangements to NOT parallel.

You and I have gone around and around about this last year.

The only contribution an employee gives to a DP is "years of service.

The ideal for retirement is to have an employer who offers a combination of both DP and 401K.

THEN,

When the employee retires they will have 3 vehicles of income:

Define Pension
401K
Social Sec.

 

[Bear96]

1. Much, not everything. But, sure, they did a great deal for the industry working conditions in the pre-dereg days.

2. You're overstating this one. The prohibition of smoking in the cabins happened in no small part because there were antismoking movements already taking hold on the ground. The unions played a part, but by no means were they the sine qua non of nonsmoking.

3. Similarly, the amount of bad press that comes from deaths on commercial aircraft has a substantial impact on industry safety. Do you think it was a union that caused the 737 rudder to be reengineered?

4. I have no hatred of unions. None. I think they're productive at times, and counterproductive at others.

1. No, I'd say pretty much everything. Non-union airlines set their compensation based on what the unionized airlines are making, or in the cases of smart management like DL, keep things slightly better to ward of the threat of unions. I would say DL F/As owe every penny of their pay to the work of unions at other airlines.

2. One way to look at the sine qua non concept is that X wouldn't have happened WHEN IT DID but for Y. Maybe smoking on airlines would have fizzled out on its own anyways eventually. But I don't think you can downplay the work unions, specifically AFA, did in this regard.

3. I thought we had been through this one before recently. Sure a fiery crash gets management's attention. But there would be a lot more fiery crashes if unions weren't being ever-vigilant behind the scenes to make sure corners aren't being cut and employees can voice their concerns without fear of retribution, to serve as a check on a management that may otherwise say, Well, go ahead and cut that corner; it'll probably be OK and it'll save a few bucks / avoid a delay or cancellation / get me my bonus or promotion / whatever.

And the rudder comparison is a red herring. No one knew about the potential problems with the 737 rudder until it was too late. Unions are most useful putting pressure on safety issues that we ARE aware of but that management wants to disregard anyways. For example, flammability of cabin interiors. Crew fatigue. I am sure mechanics and pilots could add countless other examples.

4. You keep saying that, yet you never pass up a chance to post something negative or take a dig at unions on this message board, and I don't think I have *ever* seen anything posted by you indicating the tiniest acknowledgement that maybe unions have done something beneficial in the industry over the years.

And for the record, I don't think unions are without their own problems. But it is extremely naive to think they have outgrown their usefulness in the airline industry.

 

[Bear96]

Let's look at my own compensation to get an idea. Let's round my earnings to an even number like $60,000 for the example...

Me me me me me me me me

 

[jimntx]

Bear,

I know of no better person to put first in my life. Not of this earth anyways.

I used myself to show the example of how a GOOD 501K works.

I'll be the first to admit that when it comes to work life I am only interested in how it affect ME! you're right! So shoot me for being brutally honest.

Amen, PB. As a friend of mine says, "I'm not much, but I'm all I ever think about."

 

[mweiss]

The primary "Benefit" for employees is a "Guaranteed" payout upon retirement. Which caps the "Reward" and minimizes the "Risk"

Except that it doesn't. The contract would lead you to believe that it minimizes risk, but in fact it concentrates risk in almost precisely the same way that it would if it were simply a 401k holding exclusively the employer's stock.

Why? Because in both cases, if the company folds, you're out, because companies regularly underfund their pensions. Yes, DBs are insured, so that's not an entirely accurate comparison, but it's pretty close.

 

[mweiss]

Are young people no longer satisfied with the concept of 40 years,a Gold watch & a pension? Or does it go deeper?

It goes much deeper. The social contract between employer and employee was broken years ago. Now employees feel much less loyalty to their employers, because the employers proved how little loyalty they felt to their employees.

That's why young people don't even bother looking for 40 years, a gold watch, and a pension. It doesn't exist anymore.