ALPA Thread 1/10 to 1/17 ALL ALPA/USAPA Discussed Here

[Cactus737]

1) Umm..sure...if you say so. There's never been an apparent lack of "Little Birds" speaking to folks out west it seems, and those birds seem to chirp only what you wish to hear and believe, aka : "You won't even get 200 cards!"/etc. Now? it's just variations on "Umm..well..what we really meant is nobody will actually vote for dumping Alpo"....Whatever gets you through the day I guess :blink:

I don't think that some of the East Council fastreads and ALPA web-board posts qualify as "little birds". Don't get me wrong - I don't see those guys being dumb enough to approve a TA that includes an unadultered Nic, but I do see them being rational enough to see what an ugly hopeless path USAPA is.

2) My personal levels of hypocrisy don't extend to wanting ANYTHING from the west by way of seats, upgrades, or "seniority". I've no wishes for any of you to suffer lesser pay rates so that any east pilot can "Get mine". I don't offer battle cries of "Then you can live on LOA93 forvever!" or wish you guys ANY ill, nor do I justify any/all of my beliefs or behaviors on some Alpoid "process" or arbitrator's whim.....so yeah..I'm quite comfortable with using the term "moral".

See - that's the problem. We are one company now and what you believe you were going to get as a stand-alone comes at MY expense now that we're one. A 20% RIF BEFORE the merger would not have me furloughed, but under DOH it does. I don't want your seat or upgrade, but I don't want to be your furlough fodder either.

As for the LOA 93 forever - that's something I hear East pilots boast about. Which is horribly inconsistent with the "my seniority is not for sale" concept. IE - you'll work cheap for date of hire.

3) You can't have it both ways. Either A) Your curent MEC chairman's actually a moron (which I doubt) who poorly selected that fellow for AWAPA's counsel, and has only lately found great wisdom through complete immersion in Alpo, or B, You're grasping at the tiniest of twisted straws in feeble attempts at advancing irrational positions. You make much of the apparent signifigance of TWA folks having "never turned in a card" as being noteworthy on one hand, ...while presenting the implicit argument that turning in oceans of cards actually means nothing on the east....At least one of us is definately "confused" here. :blink:

I was told, though not by John Mc directly, that the primary purpose of AWAPA was to keep ALPA on it's toes and "interested" in the AWA pilots during our last contract talks, and not to actually replace the bargaining agent. Unfortunately, even though he did attract more ALPA interest, our REAL problem was the ATSB restrictions and not ALPA. The majority around here thinks that drive only created division in our ranks when we needed to be unified.

It's hard to argue that USAPA hasn't created alot of leverage for the AAA MEC. After all, do you really think it took Prater several months to figure out that the list is the list? Of course not, he knew that on May 4th, and he spent those months playing games with merger policy in an attempt to leverage us into capitulating. I'm sure he's not done trying by the way, and I really wouldn't be surprised if he ended up hosing us before the vote. ALPA's legal liability in a suit from the West might be less than what it would cost to lose the property.

Sorry that was confusing, but the part about USAPA putting all of it's eggs in one basket with this guy could not be more clear.

 

[EastUS]

That would be fine with me, I can hold what I want and I'm not moving. However, the growth I had coming to me went bye-bye with the merger, so compensate me for that and we're even.

"I had coming to me" The west essentially rests it's entire case right there. 😉..wholly irrespective of "Without this merger, as a three year FO, you would probobly be out of a job."..which might give some at least momentary pause to wonder if magical western growth was ever even a likely bet, pre-merger. Funny thing being that's there been no company perceived need to put batch lots of more flying out there even since the merger, and with readilly available funding for such.

"so compensate me for that and we're even." Whatcha' need?...Ten bucks do it?...and I'd think that overpayment for some ethereal growth fantasy.

exB717: "You're right, we do feel entitled to Nicolau's decision." I couldn't help but notice 😉

No matter. We are where we are. There's tremendous work to be done prior to any happy family reunion, and the future will at least be interesting.

Bottom line for us all? = "Welcome to the Wacky-World of Merger-Mania" we've seen this movie a few times out east..and it's never pretty. Management doesn't care, Alpo doesn't care. All we really have in this mess is each other..and that's hardly off to a great start.

 

[Cactus737]

FYI:

Thank you for calling in, this is the USAPA phone message for Saturday, January 12th 2008.

Your USAPA volunteers continue their work to build the better union we all deserve. As mentioned in the previous phone message, we believe USAPA has become the only means by which the US Airways/America West merger can be completed. The process to which the current bargaining agent has obligated itself doesn’t bring an end to the impasse nor can it bring our two pilot groups together. The uncertainty we are mired in serves neither pilot group well.

Patently false. USAPA's ability to close this deal is a long shot at best, and I assure you that our current uncertainty (caused by the USAPA drive BTW) serves both pilot groups much better than if USAPA makes a feeble attempt to staple the AWA pilots.

A series of short videos from the Philadelphia road-show have been posted on the USAPA web site where a variety of issues are addressed by Interim President Stephen Bradford and USAPA counsel Lee Seham. We strongly encourage you to view these video clips.

I did watch them. This sham of a union is obviously ALL ABOUT the seniority award and screwing AWA pilots. I didn't see alot of discussion about much else.

In designing the USAPA committees, we took a long look at the functions in place and then distilled them into a seven-committee structure. These new committees combine related functions to insure responsiveness, efficiency, a free flow of information and vigorous contract defense.

In every instance, the key positions on each committee have already been filled with volunteers who are here only to serve pilots and the profession. At USAPA, there are no national offices to aspire to which ensures that the pilots who serve you are here for the right reasons. The experience and qualifications of the pilots who are staffing these committees is phenomenal and we thank them for stepping up.

Let me guess - no West pilots were appointed to any of those key positions. That'll be sure to be mentioned in court.

Next week a billboard in Charlotte will sport a new USAPA look. The billboard is on the west side of the Billy Graham Parkway in Charlotte between I-85 and the employee lot turnoff.

Having trouble getting support down there? LOL. Maybe you should just save your money for the lawsuits.

In closing, we’d like to repeat the words of USAPA attorney Lee Seham where he said, “The intelligence, experience, and resources to manage a successful union already exist within the US Airways pilot group. Those who stridently deny this fact are, in our view, both denigrating their fellow pilots and engaging in fear tactics.â€￾

So you ARE going to use former ALPA guys! Meet the new boss - same as the old boss.

 

[Cactus737]

"I had coming to me" The west essentially rests it's entire case right there. 😉..wholly irrespective of "Without this merger, as a three year FO, you would probobly be out of a job."..which might give some at least momentary pause to wonder if magical western growth was ever even a likely bet, pre-merger. Funny thing being that's there been no company perceived need to put batch lots of more flying out there even since the merger, and with readilly available funding for such.

"so compensate me for that and we're even." Whatcha' need?...Ten bucks do it?...and I'd think that overpayment for some ethereal growth fantasy.

exB717: "You're right, we do feel entitled to Nicolau's decision." I couldn't help but notice 😉

No matter. We are where we are. There's tremendous work to be done prior to any happy family reunion, and the future will at least be interesting.

So you believe what Parker says when it's convenient for you, and he's a liar when he says that you guys were toast. Hmmm.

I know you never read the transcripts (it's easier to rationalize your position without consulting facts), but we were HIRING when the merger was announced. We had people in a hiring pool with class dates, and there were even pilot interviews going on. We had aircraft on order that would be here by now (those orders were firm and only renegotiated because of the merger). In the two plus years following the merger, the revenue environment has been GOOD, not BAD. The LCC's were making money, not filing bankruptcy. I know you'd rather hang on to something Parker barked to an FO who got in his face, than actually consult facts and data, but the reality is that we WERE growing.

So are you saying that you should get all of the growth too? Perhaps all of the West pilots should just quietly resign so that we don't interfere wtih YOUR airline anymore.

 

[EastUS]

So you believe what Parker says when it's convenient for you, and he's a liar when he says that you guys were toast. Hmmm.

Fair enough..let's have it your way, and we'll give management fullest credence: (The east is presumed dead, and a funeral versus a merger occurs.) Then?..we're still stuck with that little "three year" people on your side being put on the street assumption. (well before hugely inflated fuel prices) The argument for "growth", or whatever you "had coming" stems from where in that?

Personally..I find any fantasy of a future wherein I, or anyone has anything "coming", as any reasonable thought, to be patently absurd. No one even knows if there's a truck coming around the corner with one's "name on it" when driving to the freaking airport. Smaller,and less lethal "trucks" are often seen in the form of corporate maneuvers/mergers/etc.

"“The intelligence, experience, and resources to manage a successful union already exist within the US Airways pilot group. Those who stridently deny this fact are, in our view, both denigrating their fellow pilots and engaging in fear tactics.”


"So you ARE going to use former ALPA guys! Meet the new boss - same as the old boss." Ummm...those specified were noted to have "intelligence"...how's that supposedly include Alpo guys? 😉 ..and "experience" comes in many forms..not just from sitting on tails at Alpo festivals.

 

[AWA320]

So you believe what Parker says when it's convenient for you, and he's a liar when he says that you guys were toast. Hmmm.

I know you never read the transcripts (it's easier to rationalize your position without consulting facts), but we were HIRING when the merger was announced. We had people in a hiring pool with class dates, and there were even pilot interviews going on. We had aircraft on order that would be here by now (those orders were firm and only renegotiated because of the merger). In the two plus years following the merger, the revenue environment has been GOOD, not BAD. The LCC's were making money, not filing bankruptcy. I know you'd rather hang on to something Parker barked to an FO who got in his face, than actually consult facts and data, but the reality is that we WERE growing.

So are you saying that you should get all of the growth too? Perhaps all of the West pilots should just quietly resign so that we don't interfere wtih YOUR airline anymore.

Now thats's far too many facts for persons of limited thinking capacity like Eastus, Nos and Hawkstress hunter

 

[Hawkhunter]

Oh please hawkstress the only reasn you have a job much less any upgrades is because of and at the expense of us in the west. Enough already with your childishness.

Come on Spanky, is "Hawkstress" the best you can do? How much money did AWA put into the merger? I love this "expense of the west" crap. You westoffs were right behind us on the unemployment line. That worried me since I know how much you like sheep. I guess there is no reason to argue anymore. You boys do what you have to do and we will do the same. See you in PHL Spanky.

 

[Hawkhunter]

That's fine furloughboy or is it girl? Pay me now or pay me later but pay you will! You see your stupid decision always seem to come back to haunt as will this one. What we should have done is let you clowns die off before you could do any more damage with your dieased thinking. Stupid is as stupid does there a chickenhawk??

Keep throwing fuel on the fire Spank. You know I was never furloughed and not a girl but you want to throw out false information. You are a liar and a punk. I truly hope that you do not represent the average AWA guy. All these names you throw out so brave behind a computer. It is time for me to take a break from these boards. People like you bring out the worse in me. I have a problem with cowards like you with big mouths.

 

[sharktooth]

You westoffs were right behind us on the unemployment line.

ALPA was the only entity stating that US would "fold". Right now, in my eyes, ALPA has the same credibility as the Pentagon saying Tillman was killed by enemy Afghans, Jessica Lynch, though severely wounded, held off enemy troops and Iranian gunboat "terraists" were saying, on the radio, that US ships would soon explode.

Doug stated the following paraphrasing.

HP, without the "merger", would be gone.

US, without the "HP merger", would be in CH11 and, as US was already CH11, apparently meant US would have to merge with someone else to get out of CH11.

It seems to me that, since, by Crystal Cities own words, "we are re-entering bk11 in order to go after the unions more", the second bk11 was one of convenience rather than necessity, therefore reports of east failure seem perfunctory and premature, at best.

 

[AWA320]

Come on Spanky, is "Hawkstress" the best you can do? How much money did AWA put into the merger? I love this "expense of the west" crap. You westoffs were right behind us on the unemployment line. That worried me since I know how much you like sheep. I guess there is no reason to argue anymore. You boys do what you have to do and we will do the same. See you in PHL Spanky.

I think it describes you quite well!! Lets talk money then hawkstress you and your cronnies cliam that "the east made all the money" well the west absorbed not some not most but ALL of the costs involved in this transaction. You claim that while you were in ch 11 fast approaching ch7 that the west was right behind you yet you still refuse to aknowledge the fact that the west was posting profits, hiring pilots, taking delivery of new aircraft all PRIOR to our saving you!!! In fact AWA in the quarter just prior to our saving you had posted the highest profit in AWA history. Yeah you just keep right on ignoring the facts there hawkstress, it's what you fine folks do best...

Was already in PHL and you were nowhere to be found. I was even in your crewroom but again no hawkstress hmmm figures.

 

[AWA320]

Keep throwing fuel on the fire Spank. You know I was never furloughed and not a girl but you want to throw out false information. You are a liar and a punk. I truly hope that you do not represent the average AWA guy. All these names you throw out so brave behind a computer. It is time for me to take a break from these boards. People like you bring out the worse in me. I have a problem with cowards like you with big mouths.

Dont blame me for your poor attitude you came already equiped with that. I only hate the people cant see the foul vulgar pvt messages you send me! Now if you rep the rest of the east that would be a shame, a shame in deed...

 

[Freighterguynow]

the growth I had coming to me went bye-bye with the merger, so compensate me for that and we're even.

It went bye bye when oil started to spike. The company is clearly interested in growing the company into profitable routes but, the problem for you, is these are in the East.

You should be compensating the East for propping up the money loser West.

 

[Freighterguynow]

You didn't bring Heathrow, Bogotá, China and a half dozen European cities neither.

And where do these routes originate? Oh yea, PHL

 

[sharktooth]

I think it describes you quite well!! Lets talk money then hawkstress you and your cronnies cliam that "the east made all the money" well the west absorbed not some not most but ALL of the costs involved in this transaction.

Please cite where you got that information as that is not common knowledge, especially amongst the corporate ranks in Tempe. West absorbed no costs except to payback US for the money HP "borrowed" to payoff the government note.

You claim that while you were in ch 11 fast approaching ch7...

Whoa, spanky. I have yet to see anyone but you claim such. The only person to claim anything was Parkers reference to HP going ch7 without the merger. Doug made no such claims about US.

In fact AWA in the quarter just prior to our saving you had posted the highest profit in AWA history.

and that would be what, a buck ninety five, after one time accounting irregularities were taken care of?

 

[luvthe9]

It went bye bye when oil started to spike. The company is clearly interested in growing the company into profitable routes but, the problem for you, is these are in the East.

You should be compensating the East for propping up the money loser West.

100% right, I would love to see the west sold off, or bring back " project Zanzibar" or better yet impose LOA 93 on them they don't deserve any of the East" profits.