ALPA Thread 1/18-1/25 ALL ALPA Discussed Here

[EastUS]

Glad to hear the AWA 3 man panel is planning a major modification of the Nicolau award, I think they are starting to get it!!

"your MEC will investigate every opportunity to deliver a contract inclusive of the Nicolau Award and deserved gains to you for ratification." "will investigate"?...I suppose they've got to have some preliminary softening-up spin prior to offering "The Great Contract". Said "Great Contract" will have some meaningless verbage that "SOUNDS" like it might satisfy a tiny percentage of east concerns...but the devil will indeed be in the details, ie: easilly disposed of flimsy fences that'll instantly disappear in the next "merger" like smoke in a tempest....just my humble opinion..we'll see soon enough. It'll be interesting to watch ALPA's attempts at placating/confusing/BS'ing both groups simultaneously. The west MEC's in a particularly tough spot. It'll take some serious tap dancing to retreat from their "Righteous Position" and yet not suffer a tad bit of umbrage from their constituents.

"will investigate every opportunity" I translate to mean: "we'll see how much of Nic we think the east people MIGHT actually buy off on"...Good luck 😉

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (Phoenix @ Jan 19 2008, 07:03 PM)
ALPA is in a flat spin with the outboard engine at full power.
Their only argument is based on speculation of how frightful it will be if you leave."

And USAPA's argument is based on what, exactly? "Vote for us and we'll magically make everything perfect!" Yeah, that's much more persuasive.

"Yeah, that's much more persuasive."??? Clearly not to you. Given any option between a purely Fear-based/animalistic response, and one based on any degree of reasoned optimism....I thnk it best to always opt out of the Fear.. All Fear ever serves to do is produce a "Fight or Flight" response, and shuts down the rational mind entirely for at least a moment, making one fully vulnerable to calculating predators of every sort.

 

[Phoenix]

 

[luvn737s]

"So you don't have to, or have the chance to..."

That's just plain silly. You almost make it sound like "the right to vote" on life/career issues should matter to people You'll never sell that ridiculous nonsense to any staunch ALPA supporter....

Why should anyone believe that the east would honor the results of a vote anymore than they have the results of an arbitration they had full participation in? The actions of the "east" (a generic reference to the tedious USAPA/AAA ALPA shell game ) have proven that it's not about ALPA or being given a vote or FPL excesses or Praters salary or Nicolau. It all about the "east" getting their way and their ability( based on their numbers advantage and the timidity of their opponents rather than any altruistic raison d 'tre) to obstruct the integration process.

This shortsighted strategy ignores the fact that they will be forced live with their salted earth policy for the rest of their careers. There will be no reconciliation, no bygones, etc, for the foreseeable future. Ironically, the very people they have decided to point their weapon at, are guilty only of following a jointly agreed-to process for determining integrated seniority. The east has created an enemy where none existed before.

But there is hope.

Should a sufficient number of pilots see beyond this mess to the many years they have left ahead of them, that they reject USAPA and it's hate-based agenda, they may enjoy opportunities to participate in a future without animosity. To be sure there will be many years of fence mending to undue what USAPA has tried to do, but under their reign, there is little hope for anything but further in-fighting. Even USAPA themselves would be hard pressed to honestly deny that.

Is a last-gasp attempt to overturn Nicolau, that holds little if any chance of success, worth losing everything else your career has to offer? Maybe some who are about to retire from the right seat can see value in burning the bridge behind them out of spite. But for the overwhelming majority of the pilots, their choice must be made, not on phantom fears of a west-pilot invasion, but on the realistic probabilities of how your career will actually play out. What stands between you and your upgrade? Does Nicolau really add 10 years to your upgrade? Or is it more like 2 or 3? Maybe only 10 months. Is it really worth spending the next 20-some years re-living an unnecessary feud, when it's authors have long sinced retired?

These are the times of peace you'll wish you could bring back, but it all depends on what you want out of the remainder of your career and the choices you make.

 

[luvn737s]

"You have to VOTE for USAPA. They WON'T do it for you!"

Oh I would put anything past them.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Why should anyone believe that the east would honor the results of a vote anymore than they have the results of an arbitration they had full participation in? The actions of the "east" (a generic reference to the tedious USAPA/AAA ALPA shell game ) have proven that it's not about ALPA or being given a vote or FPL excesses or Praters salary or Nicolau. It all about the "east" getting their way and their ability( based on their numbers advantage and the timidity of their opponents rather than any altruistic raison d 'tre) to obstruct the integration process.

This shortsighted strategy ignores the fact that they will be forced live with their salted earth policy for the rest of their careers. There will be no reconciliation, no bygones, etc, for the foreseeable future. Ironically, the very people they have decided to point their weapon at, are guilty only of following a jointly agreed-to process for determining integrated seniority. The east has created an enemy where none existed before.

But there is hope.

Should a sufficient number of pilots see beyond this mess to the many years they have left ahead of them, that they reject USAPA and it's hate-based agenda, they may enjoy opportunities to participate in a future without animosity. To be sure there will be many years of fence mending to undue what USAPA has tried to do, but under their reign, there is little hope for anything but further in-fighting. Even USAPA themselves would be hard pressed to honestly deny that.

Is a last-gasp attempt to overturn Nicolau, that holds little if any chance of success, worth losing everything else your career has to offer? Maybe some who are about to retire from the right seat can see value in burning the bridge behind them out of spite. But for the overwhelming majority of the pilots, their choice must be made, not on phantom fears of a west-pilot invasion, but on the realistic probabilities of how your career will actually play out. What stands between you and your upgrade? Does Nicolau really add 10 years to your upgrade? Or is it more like 2 or 3? Maybe only 10 months. Is it really worth spending the next 20-some years re-living an unnecessary feud, when it's authors have long sinced retired?

These are the times of peace you'll wish you could bring back, but it all depends on what you want out of the remainder of your career and the choices you make.

That's it...let's play the "blame game' again. I'll tell you what...let's wait for the election!

Let's bring on the vote. You're scaring me.

 

[EastUS]

But there is hope.

These are the times of peace you'll wish you could bring back, but it all depends on what you want out of the remainder of your career and the choices you make.

"Why should anyone believe that the east would honor the results of a vote anymore than they have the results of an arbitration they had full participation in?" That's funny, I can't recall any Alpo person EVER asking my opinion and then acting on it, much less did I have any "full participation" in this latest, greatest "process" of theirs...theirs, not mine. You might as well assign blanket responsibility to me for the Bush administration, or any other. See..that's a major problem with Alpo = an elitist, and isolated little clique that exists within it's own little world.

"Should a sufficient number of pilots see beyond this mess to the many years they have left ahead of them" I'll offer a small clue here: What do you think the average age of east pilots is? What "many years" are you fantasizing about?..certainly, not ours. If you're seeking to look ahead "many years"..how about telling yourself ond the others out west that they'll "own" this place soon enough? 😉

"reject USAPA and it's hate-based agenda"?? What "hate"?..Fine and fully standard Alpoid coloration on your part though. Attack the people, not the issues/etc 😉

"The east has created an enemy where none existed before." Nonsense...I've considered ALPA to be a functional "enemy" for a goodly long while.

"Is a last-gasp attempt to overturn Nicolau, that holds little if any chance of success, worth losing everything else your career has to offer?" You betcha' Sis..and tenfold It's only your best hope/fantasy, and hardly actual belief I'd think, that it has "little if any chance of success" or you'd not be wasting abundant band width here.

"But for the overwhelming majority of the pilots, their choice must be made, not on phantom fears of a west-pilot invasion, but on the realistic probabilities of how your career will actually play out." Those two differ in what possible way? If there was no east-seat lust out west...we wouldn't be having these little chats 😉 Nice try though.

"These are the times of peace you'll wish you could bring back, " Umm...DO I have this right?..These times are a proper reflection of what ALPA and the west consider "peace"?..I'll pass..thanks for playing.

"but it all depends on what you want out of the remainder of your career" Sure does. Seeing my "junior" comrades replaced by and made subordinate your people isn't any part of that. Stepping onto a flightdeck for the jumpseat and seeing a "captain" that looks like he/she is the adopted child of the "first officer" doesn't play well either. Let's start with a modicum of fundamental respect for people with far more experience and time on the job, and in the trade, for starters. Additionally...I'm so far past sick of wondering what next suicidally concessionary idiocy ALPA will gin up that words do indeed fail in any attempt to describe my disgust.

 

[aw319]

The poster you're replying to noted over 20 years, with no furlough...Does that count?..Even a wee, tiny little bit? :blink:
Your vast number of years flown that've, at least in your own mind, "entitled" you to "seniority" are...how many then?

"YOU HAD NO SENIORITY!!" So speaks ALPO-AWA....All in favor?...Those opposed?......I'm thinking that the motion's to be defeated within the near future.

It entitles him to roughly the position he had before the merger, Nothing more! He does NOT get to leap from Junior FO to Mid Senoirty Captain just because of a senoirty integration. Yes/No Maybe.

 

[EastUS]

It entitles him to roughly the position he had before the merger, Nothing more! He does NOT get to leap from Junior FO to Mid Senoirty Captain just because of a senoirty integration. Yes/No Maybe.

Here's a thought = I'm fully fine with no one from the east taking any of your flying, nor bumping any of you in any way. What's your possible rationale for suggesting that any out west should be "entitled" to do any such to ours? Are you all truly "special" in some way?...What is it with you folks out there? Added thought I always wonder a bit about: "Your vast number of years flown that've, at least in your own mind, "entitled" you to "seniority" are...how many then? " WHY is that such an utterly uncomfortable thing for any of you out west to answer? If you're all so fully of the belief that your position's correct..why be bashfull about that at all? If you're so uncomfortable with that even in board chat...Imagine being the "captain" in a crew where the "first officer" has three plus times your flight time, and likely more prior years flown as captain.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Imagine being the "captain" in a crew where the "first officer" has three plus times your flight time, and likely more prior years flown as captain.

Hey East - who cares about that? This US Airways outfit is a whole new company formed by the union of two different companies. Two seperate, entirely different seniority lists will be melded to form one - using the Nicalau formula. When I was younger, my F/O's often times had more flight hours than I, simply because they were retired military, and I was, well, young. It was never an issue.

So, now that that has been settled, I recommend you let go of your identity crisis and get back to reality.

 

[EastUS]

Hey East - who cares about that? This US Airways outfit is a whole new company formed by the union of two different companies. Two seperate, entirely different seniority lists will be melded to form one - using the Nicalau formula. When I was younger, my F/O's often times had more flight hours than I, simply because they were retired military, and I was, well, young. It was never an issue.

So, now that that has been settled, I recommend you let go of your identity crisis and get back to reality.

"When I was younger, my F/O's often times had more flight hours than I, simply because they were retired military, and I was, well, young. It was never an issue." Those people knew what they'd signed on for, and you weren't flashing a magical Nic ticket to justify your presence.

As per "identity crisis"? However this turns out...I needn't ever fret about seeing a westie off to my left side, so I'm uncertain where that comes from...other than the "Clueless Punk" closet 😉..."now that that has been settled": How long have you been around then?

"Two seperate, entirely different seniority lists will be melded to form one - using the Nicalau formula." Just put the cup down, and very slowly step away from the Koolaide fountain...and nobody has to get hurt The nice gentlemen in the white coats will take very good care of you 😉

 

[N924PS]

My greatest wish for the New Year is to see EastUS eating large portions of crow.

What they always forget to tell you is that 3000 cards have been submitted, but that doesn't me each of those cards will carry a pro USAPA vote.

I have spoken to many East pilots that don't agree that ALPA=Nicolau. Many also feel that the USAPA sidestep of Nicolau is not how honorable people behave when things don't go "their" way.

Bottom line: USAPA is a huge risk and many silent East pilots will not vote for a change in representation under these circumstances.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

East - when we filter out all those cute little cliche's, there's not much substance to be found in your posts.

Your argument regarding the Nic just does not have any legal backing. Both sides took big risks when they signed up for the program. And both sides took major hits when the award was revealed. And therefore it will take a long time to truly settle this - in fact I suspect you and I will both be long gone before it is ever done.

It is a well known fact that the east pilot group has reneged on its obligations at every turn since this merger began. And there is no way any legal process will be sympathetic to that type of attitude or behavior. If anyone is clucking by the coolaide punch bowl it is y'alls.

And if you have any doubt about my "punkiness" (I find it an interesting tell that you should bring that word into play here - you must be a true pleasure to fly with), lets just say that the Nic hurt me a bunch more than it helped. I currently bid in the single digits on my equipment - Captain. When all those PSA types get to bid PHX & LAS, I'll be taking a few steps backward.

Do you think I'm happy about that? Absolutely not, but my reaction is not to lose my cool over it either. And that's exactly what you and your eastern bretheren have collectively done.

 

[EastUS]

My greatest wish for the New Year is to see EastUS eating large portions of crow.

Anything in future life is possible...although I obviously think it unlikely that your particular wish will be granted, I can't say that this current west-east/Alpa-produced "war" is pleasing on any personal level. I'd suggest larger dreams for the future though, involving the usual, but precious, wishes for the health and well being of friends and loved ones. I do hope for that for yourself as well...regardless of this insane scenario we're embroiled in...

Have a good evening.

 

[nostradamus]

My greatest wish for the New Year is to see EastUS eating large portions of crow.

924psa pilot. You are an east pilot. You are a hypocrite. You are a former original psa pilot who got his seniority position by date of hire. Your psa brought nothing to the airline but pilots who received super seniority while your peers at Air Cal who were taken over by American Airlines were given no seniority.