ALPA Thread 1/18-1/25 ALL ALPA Discussed Here

[Phoenix]

FYI:

Understanding the USAPA Constitution
"The How's and Why's of Better Representation"

Thanks for the update. It looks impressive.

 

[luvn737s]

Sounds like their making it up as they go along. Maybe that'll work out for 'em.

 

[john john]

Say what you mean and mean what you say!

“meaning what you sayâ€￾

This my union brothers is call respect and integrity

 

[end_of_alpa]

End,

I must agree about the disconnect in your logic concerning the status of the pilot groups and the election. The only change to the status of the two pilot groups after the election would be the collective bargaining agent. The status of the contractual relationships in place prior to the election will remain after the election for the two individual pilot groups. These contractual relationships include the collective bargaining agreements each pilot group has with the company, the transition agreement between the pilot groups and the company, as well as the arbitrated seniority agreement between each pilot group and the company that produced the Nicalau award.

I think it is faulty logic to suggest that the transition agreement and the agreement to negotiate/mediate/arbitrate seniority are no longer valid if there is a change in representation because the pilot group would “magically become one merged groupâ€￾, yet the separate collective bargaining agreements remain valid and in place.

There is a dichotomy in the argument that under USAPA that the two groups are merged together as one without a seniority list or combined collective bargaining agreement and the argument that the Nicalau award is not valid because it cannot be implemented without a combined bargaining agreement as per the transition agreement, which you argue is not valid because it has expired.

According to the USAPA constitution and bylaws seniority is now strictly by DOH. As such would the entire list not have to be restructured and relocate the Shuttle and Empire pilots to their rightful seniority position?

The NMB will probably determine single carrier status this week...that is what they determine, whether you and I will be voting or just me. For the purposes of an election, you and I are considered part of the same craft or class. Your vote equals my vote. The company has argued were the same craft or class. USAPA has argued were the same craft or class. ALPA is trying to prevent the ruling of same craft or class.

If you and I will be voting in the upcoming election and USAPA gets voted in by the majority of the majority of votes taken....ALPA as a party and both MEC's no longer have any legal claim to argue anything regarding a collective bargaining agreement between the company and USAPA. You and I will be arguing the merits of the negotiation of a new contract within the confines of a new collective bargaining agent. You have an option...ignore it or participate. You're choice. That's the way it is now and that's the way it will be then.

You guys can "speculate" all you want. You can debate, kick, scream....call in your online "consultants" but the fact remains. Whether you believe it or not, the ONLY way I can prove what I'm telling you is a vote. Again, I can post case law, I can try reasoning, logic, as Parker and Kirby said, it doesn't matter what I think anymore. It comes down to the vote.

What everyone here seems to forget is that TWO parties negotiate a contract under RLA and NO party can seek self help, strike or lockout, if and unless the contract has reached its amenable date OR both parties agree to amend it PRIOR to the amenable date and ALL resources to a successful conclusion to a new amenable contract has been exhausted. That was and still is the original purpose of RLA...to prevent labor/management strife in a critical component of our country....transportation.

I do not expect you to read the too numerous legal material posted about this in the USAPA library. Both O'Neill and the Rakestraw cases are there. Explainations of the NMB, Allied Pilots Association History, History of Behneke and ALPA...its all there. ACPC WON'T POST THIS STUFF. ALPA WON'T POST THIS STUFF.

The relationship between a union and the employees is likened to an "attorney/client" relationship. When you vote for a union....any union.....to represent you you vote for your "legal advocate" aka LAWYER. If you don't like the legal relationship you do what we're doing now. Having an election.

And that is what the courts will look at. I have always said and will say again is that labor union relationships have always been tenuous, at best. It's just like a marriage between two (or more) persons. I AM NO GUIDANCE COUNSELOR, but it has been my personal observation and experience that successful marriages are ALWAYS shifted towards the wants and needs of the other side. I certainly have interests in my family that I would like to elevate over the others. But since nature says I have to nurture my kids to adulthood and I want to get a conjugal visit every so often I think I got smart. I just do what my wife tells me to do and we get along fine. Because both her and I have a mutual VALUATION of each other that has matured OVER TIME...we're luckily still together. We cannot, however, say the same for our MUTUAL VALUATION within our unions. And this problem is not JUST within our airline...it is with EVERY SINGLE LABOR UNION IN THE WORLD.

Without the MUTUALLY UNDERSTOOD VALUATION system within "organized" labor, merger mania will continue to get the best of labor union in any industry until the market matures and stabilizes...over time!

However, ALPA is NOT my wife. They are NOT my partner. They are lawyers of SOMEONE ELSES making. USAPA is a lawyer of OUR (relatively, I know you guys aren't making it) MAKING. APA is a lawyer. Hell, corporations are lawyers. And when this ALL comes to a head, it comes down to ONE thing....

WHICH LAWYER ARE YOU GOING TO SLEEP WITH INDIVIDUALLY? Or

WHICH LAWYER ARE WE GOING TO SLEEP WITH AS AN ORGANIZATION?

Now I am going back to the ONE thing the West pilots and their supporters only seem to understand on this forum......

We'll prove it with a vote.

 

[sharktooth]

Sounds like their making it up as they go along. Maybe that'll work out for 'em.

Um, you mean, maybe that'll work out for "us". Just sayin'

 

[end_of_alpa]

Hey guys, got some homework for you. I know you're not interested but at www.alpa.org I think you can get THEIR perspective. For all of ALPAs faults, I will say I agree with about 90% of the principles and issues addresses with ALPA. So if you think my take is flawed...you better READ their stuff FIRST! Here are the links:

America West Pilots Forge Ahead April 2004
http://www.alpa.org/alpa/DesktopModules/Vi...DocumentID=4010

A Short History of Pilot Shortages
http://www.alpa.org/alpa/DesktopModules/Vi...DocumentID=4010

You may wish to read Flying the Line, Vol. I and II by Hopkins as well. Commissioned by ALPA.

Flying the Line Vol. III is being written post 2001. The elimination of ALPA from US Airways will be the start of this book.

An historic vote is about to be taken. All because pilots continue to fail to heed the lessons of the past.

 

[end_of_alpa]

The ALPA "whipsaw" has arrived:

United Pilots: No ‘Rubber Stamp’ for Merger Involving UAL
http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/ALPA_Do...67&Tabid=73

"United pilots will not rubber stamp any merger unless and until our interests are addressed. We are prepared to protect the careers and futures of our pilots in the event of any merger or consolidation scenario.â€￾

Delta Air Lines Pilots Union Opens Strike Operations Center
http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/ALPA_Do...67&Tabid=73

The Strike Preparedness Committee has also organized picketing operations and supported massive lobbying efforts including those that helped successfully kill the US Airways hostile takeover attempt of Delta Air Lines.

“Conversely, the flexible nature of the committee will also allow your MEC to task them in support of a consolidation effort—but if and only if it is the right consolidation, a merger opportunity that provides the Delta pilots with the protections and equity we have communicated so clearly and unambiguously from the outset.â€￾

NWA Pilots Say They Might Support Merger
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/fn/5466834.html

"Northwest pilot union leaders who met Thursday night unanimously passed a resolution that says "a merger may be in the best interests of the Northwest pilots" depending on who the other airline is and what labor terms are reached. Delta Air Lines Inc. is looking at potential combinations with Northwest Airlines Corp. and UAL Corp.'s United Airlines.

Pilots at all three airlines are represented by the Air Line Pilots Association.

Even tentative pilot approval of a merger is noteworthy because they are likely to be one of the biggest sticking points in any airline combination. Integrating the unionized pilots of two large airlines is difficult because they both want to hang onto their hard-won seniority and the pay and scheduling perks that go with it. Pilots are still fighting at US Airways Group Inc. over the 2005 acquisition by America West of US Airways. Northwest pilots could support a combination if it brings "substantial improvements" in their union contract. Pilots at all three carriers took big pay cuts in bankruptcy. Northwest pilots also said they want a share in the equity of the combined airline."

If ANY pilot ANY WHERE even remotely thinks these three groups are going to "play nice" then think again!

US Airways actually stands to gain numerous advantages by being "outside" this fray!

 

[end_of_alpa]

Hey guys, notice ALPA removed the last TWO President's messages OFF their website which were about the Seniority issues here at US Airways. November and December 2007. If you can find them provide the links to the website. I've searched HARD for them but couldn't find them. Any speculation as to WHY? Have at it!

http://crewroom.alpa.org/alpa/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=276

 

[cactusboy53]

The need for further debate and debasing should come to an end. The following series of quotes and information will help all AAA pilots understand the ALPA merger policy and specifically the merger process and award between the AWA pilot group and the AAA pilot group:
".................................................................
.........."
".................................................................
.........."
and
".................................................................
.........."

Yes, I thought so.

Hey, wouldn't Parker fall flat on his face if we all (JNC members) showed up to the next JNC session and held his feet to the fire? Just think, a senior AAA pilot could realize perhaps a $50,000 to $60,000 increase in wage, time off and 401K contributions if we negotiate with him and not ourselves.! Instead, Parker's jingling our pocket change enjoying his nice cup of coffee.

 

[Mike]

The need for further debate and debasing should come to an end. The following series of quotes and information will help all AAA pilots understand the ALPA merger policy and specifically the merger process and award between the AWA pilot group and the AAA pilot group:
".................................................................
.........."
".................................................................
.........."
and
".................................................................
.........."

Yes, I thought so.

Hey, wouldn't Parker fall flat on his face if we all (JNC members) showed up to the next JNC session and held his feet to the fire? Just think, a senior AAA pilot could realize perhaps a $50,000 to $60,000 increase in wage, time off and 401K contributions if we negotiate with him and not ourselves.! Instead, Parker's jingling our pocket change enjoying his nice cup of coffee.

Oh yea..if the pilots just start holding hands Jerry Glass and Dougweiser are going to just throw money all around with Oil hovering around an all time high. Dream on...dream on

 

[end_of_alpa]

The need for further debate and debasing should come to an end. The following series of quotes and information will help all AAA pilots understand the ALPA merger policy and specifically the merger process and award between the AWA pilot group and the AAA pilot group:
".................................................................
.........."
".................................................................
.........."
and
".................................................................
.........."

Yes, I thought so.

Hey, wouldn't Parker fall flat on his face if we all (JNC members) showed up to the next JNC session and held his feet to the fire? Just think, a senior AAA pilot could realize perhaps a $50,000 to $60,000 increase in wage, time off and 401K contributions if we negotiate with him and not ourselves.! Instead, Parker's jingling our pocket change enjoying his nice cup of coffee.

I was a senior AAA pilot...not anymore. ALPA lets another "outsider" lawyer make decisions for what we COLLECTIVELY should have done. Don't start with how DOH Staples you, slots you, punishes you.....whatever. I already know your position.

My position, and ONLY my position is how I'M going to vote. Then we'll let the "CHIPS" (no pun intended for those who remain nameless) fall where they may. (Hey, I like that....CHIPS! Waffles....hey that's good too. CHIPS and WAFFLES! I come to usaviation forum for "chips and waffles"!) We're all EASTHOLES, CHIPS and WAFFLES! Kind of like the sound of that!

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

end of alpa: ever consider taking a chill pill? Posting 34 times in this one thread, sometimes 3 - 4 post in a row, is somewhat excessive. You seem to be obsessed with something. Are you OK to fly with?

Whatever happens regarding ALPA or USAPA will happen. But, based upon what I see coming from you, I'm concerned we might have a couple distracted pilots out there. :down:

Maybe a nice walk through the park will help.

 

[dariencc]

end of alpa: ever consider taking a chill pill? Posting 34 times in this one thread, sometimes 3 - 4 post in a row, is somewhat excessive. You seem to be obsessed with something. Are you OK to fly with?

Looks like you've found something else to be nervous about. First it was that flights to Asia with 2 engines will expose our pax to more "peril" and now this. You're projecting again, Captain.

Whatever happens regarding ALPA or USAPA will happen. But, based upon what I see coming from you, I'm concerned we might have a couple distracted pilots out there. :down:

I have a feeling that you will be the one distracted by what "happens" with USAPA in the very near future.

 

[EastUS]

Looks like you've found something else to be nervous about. First it was that flights to Asia with 2 engines will expose our pax to more "peril" and now this. You're projecting again, Captain.



I have a feeling that you will be the one distracted by what "happens" with USAPA in the very near future.

Nonsense. This gentleman clearly has nerves of steel. "I'll say this right away: Should this ever come to pass, those A-330 crews are going to be under a tremendous amount of pressure every time they strap one of those babys on and point it towards China". I'd personally be well pleased to fly with him in even the most highly stressed combat enviornment..providing that he wore the enemy's uniform of course

Back to more pleasant activities....Have fun All.

Let's VOTE!

Addendum: Just this minute got a call from the latest Alpo "Poll"/circus. The lady didn't seem the tiniest bit surprised at my "I'll save you the time and trouble ma'am...I don't think so with Alpa" response.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Looks like you've found something else to be nervous about. First it was that flights to Asia with 2 engines will expose our pax to more "peril" and now this. You're projecting again, Captain.



I have a feeling that you will be the one distracted by what "happens" with USAPA in the very near future.

d-cc, now you're shadowing me from one thread to another. And doing some out of context para-phrasing while you're at it. That puts you right up there with e-o-a in the "get a life" category. Spooky! 😛h34r:

You guys must be really nervous about the future of your big experiment. Remember, if (or when) the NMB - thanks to 100% ALPA support from the west - says no dice to usapa :down: , you're going to be gridlocked for two years. Maybe then you might start to begin acting like mature adults. But right now, I'm just not seeing it.

Have a nice day, mein klein schatten......

NLC