ALPA Thread 12/21 to 12/28 ALL ALPA/USAPA here

[luvn737s]

Fact: USAPA "founding fathers" DO NOT have “noâ€￾ remarkable academic qualifications, but they DO have professional qualifications that transcend any subjective belief of professional. SPIRIT, dedication, hard work, common cause, and many other (3100+cards) give them the opportunity to make things right and better...not just for 3500 "East" pilots and not detrimental to 1800 "West" pilots, but for the airline profession in particular. That is the very ESSESSENCE of what professionalism is all about…pure “blood, sweat and tearsâ€￾ (and I can attest to that later.)

OK then elect my Golden Retriever to the MEC Chair. He's loyal and housebroken. How about some real qualifications and track record?

Fact: If US Airways pilots remain in ALPA, merger policy is a crapshoot in favor of any "ALPA" carrier that we potentially merge with that, odds on favorite, will serve to the betterment of them...not us! It is a crapshoot that an unbound merger policy from a "board" (an arbitrator who has NEVER BEEN A JUDGE and two NON-VOTING and meaningless extras even if they BOTH made an alliance against the Arbitrator) that has NO GUIDELINES or boundaries! Just process.

$$$$. It takes some to play in the merger arena. Once the company steamrolls U-SAPs, the next union at the subsequent merger partner will have seen that they are easy pickins. Of course you could just say, "We've got nothing to lose, blah blah blah" Laughter to ensue.

Fact: The professional AND economic fate of the 5000+ pilots at US Airways INCLUDE the USAPA founders. The USAPA founders and the officers of USAPA, when they are voted in, have NO HIGHER CALLING to ascend to other than USAPA. The Founders, VOLUNTEERS, and OFFICERS are NOT AFRAID to assume the mantle of responsibility. Let our future rest on THEIR shoulders. There can be no higher calling than to serve our profession in this manner

They have not demonstrated the qualifications, experience or integrity to serve the pilots. But they sure can't wait to get their hansd on the pot o' gold (empty though it will be).

Fact: ALPA Nationals Officers, President (Continental), VP (United), Secretary (American Eagle) are in the union to preserve THEIR political interests. The Executive Council is made up of pilots OTHER than US Airways. Only the Treasurer is US Airways. Of course that is another "sore spot" that has indirectly left ALPA vulnerable at this airline but this discussion can wait.

Sorry that you feel it unnecessary to participate in the real world of the professional pilot community at large.

Fact: The ALPA Concerned Pilots Committee (ACPC) is nothing more than a special interest group made up primarily of AWA pilots that want nothing other than to smear and defile the good names AND reputations of those PILOTS who make up the FOUNDERS, VOLUNTEERS AND OFFICERS of USAPA. The evidence for this proof can be found here and on the ALPA web boards and are simply UNFOUNDED. Most of what the ACPC cites as a foundation of THEIR legal opinion can be found (and has been for quite some time) at the USAPA website in the library. Read it at the USAPA web site http://usairlinepilots.org/library/default.htm and note the dates they were posted. USAPA IS HIDING NOTHING!!! USAPA is about CHOICE…pure and simple. What galls the minority is the FACT that, in any union, the MAJORITY RULES…pure and simple.

The behavior of the U-SAPs so-called leadership makes that an easy task. What happens when U-SAPs is in the minority and needs to rely on integrity and character, only to find there's none. U-SAPs never tried to dissuade the AAA MEC from their blockheaded DOH prime directive, the least amount of compromise on which would have eliminated the entire arbitration. So much for leadership.

Fact: AWMEC Chairman's Message 15 Dec 2007 "....presentation of the list and what that means....very little, other than the completion of an administrative hurdle. Management cannot use or implement the Nicolau Award until BOTH MECs AND PILOT GROUPS RATIFY a joint agreement that contains the terms and conditions on how to implement the award and significant economic gains in many other areas." and "almost all the administrative sections in the JNC process have been TA’d for well over a year."

Again, U-SAPs has no standing in the TA and the company is under no compulsion to write a new one to include them. Thus the last hurdle to full synergy regardless of contracts is torn down. Danged if you do, ... well you get the idea.

 

[luvn737s]

end of alpa wrote:

Fact: DFR lawsuits involving “major†disputes, which occur less often than the former, carry the same high failure rate. These suits are generally comprised of LMRDA or constitutional (Federal and/or State) violations and thereby grant the collective bargaining agent a â€wide latitude†of permissible and even in some cases a reasonable amount of “negligent†and/or “promissory†discretion.

U-SAPs has put out more than sufficient prejudicial information and policies that disengfranchise the west, that a DFR might be the quickest case in labor law history. Here's where a little maturity and restraint on U-SAPs part would have served them well.

Fact: ALPA has no more of a lock on union "expertise" than anyone else does. The odds of a greatly enhanced CB agreement with an in-house union are higher in the "deregulated" environment than in the previous "regulated" environment we are all intimately familiar with. Numerous examples of successful “non-ALPA†carriers abound.

But they do have a track record for better or worse, which is more than U-SAPs can claim.

Fact: USAPA can and will be able to provide and support all the same functions albeit at a much more "cost effective" (I did not say, nor do I even wish to imply cheap) and in a more efficient package with US Airways pilots only. Political "complications" are greatly reduced. The loss of available large MCF monies seem to be a concern of the ALPA supporters in the EAST (loss of Nicolau in the West)...which are few and diminishing as the election draws near. MCF monies will have NOTHING to do with the effectiveness of an enhanced CB Agreement...only the overwhelming resolve and unity and MAJORITY of the pilot group can effectuate AND accomplish this feat…. nothing more.

How will they finance even the phone bill when a large majority will not be paying dues? When the east sees the west receiving any possible benefits of U-SAPs without paying a red cent, why will they bother paying?

Fact: The “implication†that US Airways will “steamroll†the pilots in negotiations is a false one…the management can “steamroll†ONLY if the overwhelming majority allow it to. NOTHING MORE.

Again the ability to make good on rhetoric takes money. U-SAPs will have none.


[sorry about the out-of order reply - flood control problem]

 

[end_of_alpa]

OK then elect my Golden Retriever to the MEC Chair. He's loyal and housebroken. How about some real qualifications and track record?



$$$$. It takes some to play in the merger arena. Once the company steamrolls U-SAPs, the next union at the subsequent merger partner will have seen that they are easy pickins. Of course you could just say, "We've got nothing to lose, blah blah blah" Laughter to ensue.



They have not demonstrated the qualifications, experience or integrity to serve the pilots. But they sure can't wait to get their hansd on the pot o' gold (empty though it will be).



Sorry that you feel it unnecessary to participate in the real world of the professional pilot community at large.



The behavior of the U-SAPs so-called leadership makes that an easy task. What happens when U-SAPs is in the minority and needs to rely on integrity and character, only to find there's none. U-SAPs never tried to dissuade the AAA MEC from their blockheaded DOH prime directive, the least amount of compromise on which would have eliminated the entire arbitration. So much for leadership.



Again, U-SAPs has no standing in the TA and the company is under no compulsion to write a new one to include them. Thus the last hurdle to full synergy regardless of contracts is torn down. Danged if you do, ... well you get the idea.

We'll just say we'll let the events unfold and see what tommorrow brings. I find you, of all the web board posters I have read from, the most illogical, ignorant and naively uneducated regarding unions and union principles. It is you're kind, and I truly believe THIS to be a minority at that, that have made every attempt to "take what you can, give nothing back" the mantra of the new "unionism". Sounds like an immature teenager to me. I do not really believe you know what you're up against.

You're about to find out. Oh, by the way, when USAPA becomes the LEGAL collective bargaining agent, I will be happy to reveal who I am. I'm sure you will be as forthcoming afterwards...not likely though. You'll likely be sulking somewhere and saying whatever comes to mind that placates your uneducated mind. Everything you post has NO shred of logic OR legal background. You make assumtions based on gut feelings, uneducated guesses, wishful thinking and flights of fancy.

The award is ELIMINATED after USAPA arrives. That SIR, is a FACT. That, SIR, is the LAW.

You said...."Here we agree. Because if U-SAPs carrys the day, the Nicolau list is fast-tracked with the abscence of a Transition Agreement (U-SAPS never signed on) or Merger Policy. So if you want Nic tomarrow, vote USAPA today. "

Here we do NOT agree and this statement only shows, not only your ignorance but again your naivety and lack of a cogent message. WHAT LEGAL OR FACTUAL BASIS DO YOU MAKE THIS PRESUMPTION??? Just stating the ABSURD doesn't make it so. Who is telling you this? Certainly, you ask THEM for the legal basis for this assumption.

If you lose the Transition Agreement, there is NOTHING to implement ANY award. I do not know what you mean about "fast tracked". There is NO SUCH THING! Do you not read YOUR OWN MEC CHAIRMAN MESSAGES???? The award is an ADMINISTRATIVE HURTLE.....NOTHING MORE. It can only be implemented if a MAJORITY of pilots from BOTH MEC's vote for it in any tentative agreement. In fact, the EAST MEC has a SUPER MAJORITY under the T/A...we only need OUR majority, not including your pilots, to vote down ANY tentative agreement! YOU CANNOT FAST TRACK SOMETHING YOU DON"T VOTE IN.. Even the other AWA pilots on this forum can see that. And if they believe YOUR "expert" tripe, then they better distance themselves from "you" and "your kind" as fast as they can!

This "end of days" scenario does NOT scare me nor does it scare the East pilots. I can assure you, I can speak FIRST HAND to this...I have spoken personally with THOUSANDS (to the point of getting tired of hearing MY own voice, I can assure you, and yes I HAVE been VERY BUSY out here, without a cent of flight loss pay) of EAST pilots over the last six months. I walked Herndon, I've met them in the aircraft, I jumpseat and keep them informed. I HAVE NEVER, IN MY ENTIRE CAREER, BEEN MORE PROUD OF THE FINEST, FOCUSED, MOST COMPETENT AND STEADFAST GROUP OF PROFESSIONALS...EVER! These fine Men and Women are NOT afraid. It's even more tighter as a group then it was at Piedmont. After everything THEY have gone through they have STOOD THE TEST OF TIME AND THEY HAVE ADAPTED, THEY HAVE IMPROVISED AND FINALLY...THEY WILL OVERCOME.

WHY? Because they GET IT! Say all you want, throw sticks and stones all you want....but in the end, we'll still be standing and we'll still be together. This show of unity is what REALLY galls you.

SON, you need to do some homework. Please return to building the "sandcastle" on the beach...the test of time is the true harbinger of principle.

I have to GET BACK TO DO SOME MORE WORK BASED ON SOUND PRINCIPLES. To all the US Pilots, EAST and WEST, get the FACTS yourself. Do not BELIEVE ME OR ANYONE ELSE WHEN YOU VOTE. VOTE WITH YOUR KNOWLEDGE AND TRUST YOURSELVES.....YOU"LL KNOW WHAT TO DO. FLY SAFE, STAY FOCUSED and MOST OF ALL STAY INFORMED!!!

ALPA's time for honoring themselves will soon be at an end. Keep this in mind...YOU"LL BE MAKING HISTORY...AND THIS HISTORY IS YOUR HISTORY....STARTING ANEW! Remember, this is YOUR TIME...YOUR FINEST HOUR!!

 

[EastUS]

end of alpa wrote:
U-SAPs has put out more than sufficient prejudicial information and policies that disengfranchise the west, that a DFR might be the quickest case in labor law history. Here's where a little maturity and restraint on U-SAPs part would have served them well.
But they do have a track record for better or worse, which is more than U-SAPs can claim.

In summation of the collected pro-Alpo postings since may: "The mighty and fearsome Alpo makes the very sun rise each day! Believe in NOTHING else, or darkness will consume the world! Sacrifice is needed! Thousands of infidels in the east must be shown that the one true path requires them to sacrifice!!. They must be shown that believing in themselves, and their friends and comrades only angers Alpo!!! They must climb the alter and willingly sacrifice their hearts, their seniority, their pensions (too late), and their very guts and spines so that Alpo will be pleased...and only then will the sun rise again!!!" "Donations and dues, plus assessments for the alter and committee of Alpoid High Priests to be collected immediately" That about it?

"But they do have a track record......." 😉

 

[N924PS]

[quote name='end_of_alpa' date='Dec 29 2007

ALPA's time for honoring themselves will soon be at an end. Keep this in mind...YOU"LL BE MAKING HISTORY...AND THIS HISTORY IS YOUR HISTORY....STARTING ANEW! Remember, this is YOUR TIME...YOUR FINEST HOUR!!
[/quote]


This sounds like the same speech Admiral Yamamoto gave his carrier pilots on 7 December 1941. Look how that turned out....

 

[hp_fa]

The award is ELIMINATED after USAPA arrives. That SIR, is a FACT. That, SIR, is the LAW.

I don't think so.....

USAPA steps into the shoes of where ALPA was and is bound to all the things that occurred prior to USAPA becoming the bargaining agent. Think about it a second. If what you contend is true, wouldn't all the agreements that ALPA obtained then be toast under you scenario? That includes your contract with the company. Do you want to go back to a first contract scenario and have them impose terms in the meantime?

 

[EastUS]

[quote name='N924PS' post='556748' date='Dec 29 2007, 11:36 PM'][quote name='end_of_alpa' date='Dec 29 2007

ALPA's time for honoring themselves will soon be at an end. Keep this in mind...YOU"LL BE MAKING HISTORY...AND THIS HISTORY IS YOUR HISTORY....STARTING ANEW! Remember, this is YOUR TIME...YOUR FINEST HOUR!!



This sounds like the same speech Admiral Yamamoto gave his carrier pilots on 7 December 1941. Look how that turned out....[/quote]

From Alpo's viewpoint; I believe that you really meant the following from the late Admiral Y: "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."..and look how that turned out 😉

PS: Admiral Nagumo was calling the shots as the personally present task force commander for the Pear Harbor attack, Admiral Yamamoto wasn't even there, and there wasn't broken radio silence done for pre-attack cheerleading from afar...but, no matter: enthusiastic Alpo support seemingly requires at least some degree of ignorance.

 

[N924PS]

From Alpo's viewpoint; I believe that you really meant the following from the late Admiral Y: "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve."..and look how that turned out 😉

PS: Admiral Nagumo was calling the shots as the personally present task force commander for the Pear Harbor attack, Admiral Yamamoto wasn't even there, and there wasn't broken radio silence done for pre-attack cheerleading from afar...but, no matter: enthusiastic Alpo support seemingly requires at least some degree of ignorance.

So, Sharky, you decided to be East US again. Must be tough being schizophrenic. Don't you have to declare that on your FAA medical?

 

[EastUS]

So, Sharky, you decided to be East US again. Must be tough being schizophrenic. Don't you have to declare that on your FAA medical?

"Must be tough being schizophrenic" Check your own mirror(s)? 😉 He and I are two entirely seperate people, and you're likely confused by similar expressed notions. Not to worry = There's a lot of that out east 😉 Is that your best attempt at mounting some "Alpoid Ignorance" defense? How about some more from "Admiral Yamamoto's speech" instead? In full fairness: There's no actual proof that he gave the "sleeping giant" observation verbatim as commonly popularized, although he expressed a virtually identical thought to a subordinate IJN Admiral as related by the latter.

Spotty knowledge of an event that forever changed American and world history isn't a hanging offence. Immediately sticking your tongue out and calling someone schizophrenic, and implying dishonesty in them when called on it's not an enormous issue either. The two together do paint some portion of a picture of a person I'd not really care to have deciding my aviation future though.

Feel free to offer up additional proof of the clear need for Alpo's magnificent intellectuals-at-large for all future negotiations and union dealings, and especially why people should vote as you "think" they should...........

 

[end_of_alpa]

I don't think so.....

USAPA steps into the shoes of where ALPA was and is bound to all the things that occurred prior to USAPA becoming the bargaining agent. Think about it a second. If what you contend is true, wouldn't all the agreements that ALPA obtained then be toast under you scenario? That includes your contract with the company. Do you want to go back to a first contract scenario and have them impose terms in the meantime?

Ma'am, with ALL due respect...the end game of ALPA is upon us within these next few months and then it WILL be a new day. What you think and how the legality of unionism works should prove very educational to you and you're brethren in the FA rank and file. The transition agreement is NOT the collective bargaining agreement. It is a PATH that the Company, ALPA national and two SUBORDINATE MECs agree to pursue to achieve a COMBINED contract. IT IS A PROCESS....NOT AN END GAME. It is not the END..it is the MEANS to an END. It is NOT a CBA...it is a path TO a CBA. USAPA assumes LOA 93 when it is voted in. The East and West come under ONE CB Agent when USAPA is voted in. The Transition agreement binds ALPA to THEIR policy...period. The company can accept a myriad of proposed seniority lists until the cows come home as long as it meets THEIR conditions and restrictions outlined in the transition agreement. The company can only accept a list from a CB agent that represents the pilots. They have accepted a list from ALPA...SO WHAT? The AWA ALPA MEC Chairman said the same thing..in effect. It is a procedural, administrative hurtle...FOR ALPA.

The NAME or TITLE of an "agreement" such as "Letter of Agreement" or "Transition Agreement" does not mean anything. It is what is written WITHIN the body of that document that is what any "judge" will look at. DON'T BE FOOLED BY THE TITLE! It means nothing. You look at the body of the document for intent. This agreement could be titled "how to fix a toilet" or "What I did on my summer vacation" and it STILL wouldn't change the intent of the document.

Let me say this ONE MORE TIME....the list becomes part of a CBA IF, AND ONLY IF, THE MAJORITY OF PILOTS VOTE FOR IT UNDER ALPA. IT IS AN ADMINISTRATIVE HURTLE THAT BINDS ALPA, AND ALPA ONLY. NO ONE ELSE. IF USAPA presents a list that comports with the same conditions and restrictions the company imposed on ALPA they would be bound to accept THAT list as well. Remember the T/A cannot be a "contract" if it has to be voted in.

As far as ALPA is concerned Section 22 Seniority, is closed as of 17 December 2007. Each section of a CBA is usually negotiated a piece at a time until a complete agreement is forged. Until the time the ink is wet on the paper, the contract is still in negotiation. PERIOD. You would do well to move along to another forum where the questions are easier for you. If you wish to read about unionism 101 I suggest you go to Amazon.com and order several books on the matter. This would also apply to luvn737s.

Of course you could also get a great amount of GOOD SOLID FACTUAL information by simply reading the USAPA web site. GOOD LUCK with your education.

 

[end_of_alpa]

end of alpa wrote:



U-SAPs has put out more than sufficient prejudicial information and policies that disengfranchise the west, that a DFR might be the quickest case in labor law history. Here's where a little maturity and restraint on U-SAPs part would have served them well.



But they do have a track record for better or worse, which is more than U-SAPs can claim.



How will they finance even the phone bill when a large majority will not be paying dues? When the east sees the west receiving any possible benefits of U-SAPs without paying a red cent, why will they bother paying?



Again the ability to make good on rhetoric takes money. U-SAPs will have none.


[sorry about the out-of order reply - flood control problem]

Agency shop. You'll pay or you'll be TERMINATED. If you don't believe me I have the records and papers to PROVE YOU OTHERWISE. Again you throw out majority which is what YOU'RE not! Evidently ignorance rears it's ugly head again. Why don't you ask McIlvenna what happens when you do not pay your dues? Believe me, you talk a cheap story but a large majority WILL pay their dues because it takes a large majority to get USAPA in here (+3100 cards). Care to place a bet? Pay or loose your job.

Fire away, bub. The more you "debate" the more you look like a fool on this forum.

By the way, I do not believe you represent the VAST majority of AWA pilots. ALPA let ALL of us down and we are not fools in the eyes of the world of professional pilots, contrary to YOUR "belief". I can not tell you of the support from the other pilot groups, both ALPA and non-ALPA, that USAPA has received. Our common threads transend the ALPA body as we know it. Of course this is beyond the perview of your conceptual grasp and intellect.

 

[pilot]

[quote name='N924PS' post='556748' date='Dec 30 2007, 12:36 AM'][quote name='end_of_alpa' date='Dec 29 2007

ALPA's time for honoring themselves will soon be at an end. Keep this in mind...YOU"LL BE MAKING HISTORY...AND THIS HISTORY IS YOUR HISTORY....STARTING ANEW! Remember, this is YOUR TIME...YOUR FINEST HOUR!!



This sounds like the same speech Admiral Yamamoto gave his carrier pilots on 7 December 1941. Look how that turned out....[/quote]


You know as much about history as you do about ALPA and the will of the East pilots. It was Yamamoto who stated: "I fear all we have done is awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve."

The Nic award finally awoke the sleeping East pilots. It's a true shame it took so long but at least it finally happened.

One thing that is totally illogical is how you think USAPA has no chance. Do some more research (here let me help you: http://www.alliedpilots.org/Public/AboutAP..._beginning.asp) and try to understand there is much more out there than ALPA.

You also might want to study a little American history. We lost at Peal Harbor. We won the war.

 

[end_of_alpa]

You know as much about history as you do about ALPA and the will of the East pilots. It was Yamamoto who stated: "I fear all we have done is awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve."

The Nic award finally awoke the sleeping East pilots. It's a true shame it took so long but at least it finally happened.

One thing that is totally illogical is how you think USAPA has no chance. Do some more research (here let me help you: http://www.alliedpilots.org/Public/AboutAP..._beginning.asp) and try to understand there is much more out there than ALPA.

You also might want to study a little American history. We lost at Peal Harbor. We won the war.

FYI: This same document formatted in an easier to read .pdf file can be found at the USAPA library which was posted 10 June 2007. http://usairlinepilots.org/library/apa.pdf

 

[N924PS]

You know as much about history as you do about ALPA and the will of the East pilots. It was Yamamoto who stated: "I fear all we have done is awakened a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve."

The Nic award finally awoke the sleeping East pilots. It's a true shame it took so long but at least it finally happened.

One thing that is totally illogical is how you think USAPA has no chance. Do some more research (here let me help you: http://www.alliedpilots.org/Public/AboutAP..._beginning.asp) and try to understand there is much more out there than ALPA.

You also might want to study a little American history. We lost at Peal Harbor. We won the war.

The point was the Japanese (USAPA) won the battle and LOST the war. Duh....

 

[pilot]

The point was the Japanese (USAPA) won the battle and LOST the war. Duh....

WE aren't the Japanese in case you haven't noticed. Comparing what we are doing to what the Japanese did is just plain silly. But I get your mindset.

You also seem to think a pilot's pay is tied to the fortunes or misfortunes of the company they work for. Isn't it quite interesting that each company pays the same (within a few cents) for jet fuel whether making or losing money. How can that be? Could it be that the oil companies refuse to set their prices according to profit or loss of who they provide the fuel for?

Of course, pilots couldn't possibly do that could they? You see, they have your expectations managed perfectly. Think outside the box Sparky. It takes balls to stand up for a profession. Don't you think it's way past time we all grow some?