ALPA Thread 12/21 to 12/28 ALL ALPA/USAPA here

[luvn737s]

How about the qualifications and accomplishments of the presumed leaders of U-SAPs? I mean if you're planning on following them to perdition, at least you should be familiar with their credentials.

 

[luvn737s]

EastUS needed a little refresher on where he came from. Here's 5 seconds worth.


How about the contracts built on decades of work, that USAPA will pilfer to write their own? How about the sacrifice of pilots who went on strike to establish and protect the pay scales from which U-SAPs will try and build?How about the provisions that keep pilots from being held personally liable for damage to company aircraft? How about contract provisions that don't automatically fire a pilot who becomes medically unable to fly? How about the contract provisions that eliminate stand-up overnights (an eastie treat)? How about lobbying efforts to keep surveillance cameras from the flight deck? How about increasing safety standards for cargo carriers? How about LAHSO restrictions? How about input on charting and ground movement safety? How about the contract provisions that don't automatically fire someone for having a bad day in the sim? How about the contract provisions that give eliminate 24 hour reserve shifts and have some guranteed days off? How about contract provisions that allow for a vacation and don't require pilots to come in to work in the office if they time out for the year.

Gotta another 5 seconds?

 

[N924PS]

EastUS needed a little refresher on where he came from. Here's 5 seconds worth.


How about the contracts built on decades of work, that USAPA will pilfer to write their own? How about the sacrifice of pilots who went on strike to establish and protect the pay scales from which U-SAPs will try and build?How about the provisions that keep pilots from being held personally liable for damage to company aircraft? How about contract provisions that don't automatically fire a pilot who becomes medically unable to fly? How about the contract provisions that eliminate stand-up overnights (an eastie treat)? How about lobbying efforts to keep surveillance cameras from the flight deck? How about increasing safety standards for cargo carriers? How about LAHSO restrictions? How about input on charting and ground movement safety? How about the contract provisions that don't automatically fire someone for having a bad day in the sim? How about the contract provisions that give eliminate 24 hour reserve shifts and have some guranteed days off? How about contract provisions that allow for a vacation and don't require pilots to come in to work in the office if they time out for the year.

Gotta another 5 seconds?

Everything you cited is true. Unfortunately, since in the eyes of the East, ALPA=Nicolau, ALPA will be gone after the NMB election.

I believe that USAPA will prevail, but to the short and long term detriment of the combined USAirways pilots group. Unless, through a special USAPA assessment, they can afford to hire professional negotiators that are the same caliber as Jerry Glass and Associates, USAirways management will steamroll them in joint contract negotations.

As far as I know, the USAPA "founding father's" have no remarkable academic or professional qualifications that have prepared them for the task at hand. I admire them for their spirit to make things right and better, and wish them and the ardent USAPA supporters all the best in what they attempt to achieve. The professional and economic fate of 5000+ pilots, not just the 3000 East card submitters, rests on their shoulders.

 

[EastUS]

EastUS needed a little refresher on where he came from. Here's 5 seconds worth.


How about the contracts built on decades of work, that USAPA will pilfer to write their own? How about the sacrifice of pilots who went on strike to establish and protect the pay scales from which U-SAPs will try and build?How about the provisions that keep pilots from being held personally liable for damage to company aircraft? How about contract provisions that don't automatically fire a pilot who becomes medically unable to fly? How about the contract provisions that eliminate stand-up overnights (an eastie treat)? How about lobbying efforts to keep surveillance cameras from the flight deck? How about increasing safety standards for cargo carriers? How about LAHSO restrictions? How about input on charting and ground movement safety? How about the contract provisions that don't automatically fire someone for having a bad day in the sim? How about the contract provisions that give eliminate 24 hour reserve shifts and have some guranteed days off? How about contract provisions that allow for a vacation and don't require pilots to come in to work in the office if they time out for the year.

Gotta another 5 seconds?

Very impressive indeed, and that fully explains why the very chairman of the AWA MEC sought to dump Alpo himself, in favor of an in-house union...prior to Nic of course 😉 BTW: None of the beneficial issues mentioned are at all unique to Alpo presence on any property. No thoughts on pensions?..."Seniority"?..and exactly when WAS the last great Alpoid led strike?..."Great Contract achieved"?/ANY actual improvements for line pilots?etc?.....Have fun shoveling the "stuff"......While you still can 😉

 

[Phoenix]

...Still waiting 😉

I used to think "STRENGTH" would be the mark of any group that could organize against ALPA and successfully replace them.

On the other hand I have also thought that the exposed "IMPOTENCE" of ALPA is truly what one learns of in such an overthrow.

It of course dawned on me that it is an apparent contradiction that one can expect to see the "strength" of ALPA and the "impotence" of ALPA as a result of the same event--ALPA loosing the representative election.

But there is no contradiction at all. ALPA has legions of lawyers and psychologists (how many polls have they done on the Nic alone?) that maneuver, plot, and hedge in the hapless victims that pay the machine that produces largesse--the invincible mother ship. How many times has ALPA been sued by its members, yet only one pilot group has ever developed the momentum to escape the black hole called ALPA. "Strength"? Yes, a group is especially strong if they are able to organize against "city hall" and prevail.

On the other hand ALPA lacks the strength of a paper tiger to preserve any work rules, rigs, vacation, hourly pay rates, sick time, pension, seniority, or even its own constitution and bylaws when it whispers a threat of instability against the mother-ship. So in the sense of replacing ALPA for these reasons, the replacement really highlights ALPA's "impotence."

Any group that is powerful enough to convince the Stockholm-victims to at last throw off the comfortable illusions of their handlers and step out into the possibilities of self-determination...

Yet, once the lie is exposed (even effectively confessed by the handlers) then it is too late for the man "to hide behind the curtain." Dorothy, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. No. Really, pay him no attention or dues.

 

[Phoenix]

No matter who you are you gotta love this video.

The Great and Powerful OZ says, "DO NOT AROUSE THE WRATH OF THE GREAT AND POWERFUL OZ!"

Dorothy replies, "If you were really great and powerful, you would keep your promises!"

The Wizard yells back, "Do you presume to criticize the Great OZ. You ungrateful creatures! Think yourselves lucky..."


The Great and Powerful Wizzard of OZ (Like ALPA?)

 

[end_of_alpa]

Everything you cited is true. Unfortunately, since in the eyes of the East, ALPA=Nicolau, ALPA will be gone after the NMB election.

I believe that USAPA will prevail, but to the short and long term detriment of the combined USAirways pilots group. Unless, through a special USAPA assessment, they can afford to hire professional negotiators that are the same caliber as Jerry Glass and Associates, USAirways management will steamroll them in joint contract negotations.

As far as I know, the USAPA "founding father's" have no remarkable academic or professional qualifications that have prepared them for the task at hand. I admire them for their spirit to make things right and better, and wish them and the ardent USAPA supporters all the best in what they attempt to achieve. The professional and economic fate of 5000+ pilots, not just the 3000 East card submitters, rests on their shoulders.

I have usually been too busy as of late preparing for the upcoming election, but I will address this. The “factsâ€￾ on this and other boards seem to be extremely loose.

Fact: ALPA = Nicolau rules.

Fact: USAPA = Majority Choice.

Fact: Passing the “listâ€￾ to the company means nothing. SEE BELOW.

Fact: The overwhelming majority of DFR lawsuits involve “minorâ€￾ disputes and these suits have a very high failure rate against the Plaintiff, who bears the burden of proof.

Fact: DFR lawsuits involving “majorâ€￾ disputes, which occur less often than the former, carry the same high failure rate. These suits are generally comprised of LMRDA or constitutional (Federal and/or State) violations and thereby grant the collective bargaining agent a â€￾wide latitudeâ€￾ of permissible and even in some cases a reasonable amount of “negligentâ€￾ and/or “promissoryâ€￾ discretion.

Fact: ALPA has no more of a lock on union "expertise" than anyone else does. The odds of a greatly enhanced CB agreement with an in-house union are higher in the "deregulated" environment than in the previous "regulated" environment we are all intimately familiar with. Numerous examples of successful “non-ALPAâ€￾ carriers abound.

Fact: USAPA can and will be able to provide and support all the same functions albeit at a much more "cost effective" (I did not say, nor do I even wish to imply cheap) and in a more efficient package with US Airways pilots only. Political "complications" are greatly reduced. The loss of available large MCF monies seem to be a concern of the ALPA supporters in the EAST (loss of Nicolau in the West)...which are few and diminishing as the election draws near. MCF monies will have NOTHING to do with the effectiveness of an enhanced CB Agreement...only the overwhelming resolve and unity and MAJORITY of the pilot group can effectuate AND accomplish this feat…. nothing more.

Fact: The “implicationâ€￾ that US Airways will “steamrollâ€￾ the pilots in negotiations is a false one…the management can “steamrollâ€￾ ONLY if the overwhelming majority allow it to. NOTHING MORE.

Fact: USAPA "founding fathers" DO NOT have “noâ€￾ remarkable academic qualifications, but they DO have professional qualifications that transcend any subjective belief of professional. SPIRIT, dedication, hard work, common cause, and many other (3100+cards) give them the opportunity to make things right and better...not just for 3500 "East" pilots and not detrimental to 1800 "West" pilots, but for the airline profession in particular. That is the very ESSESSENCE of what professionalism is all about…pure “blood, sweat and tearsâ€￾ (and I can attest to that later.)

Fact: If US Airways pilots remain in ALPA, merger policy is a crapshoot in favor of any "ALPA" carrier that we potentially merge with that, odds on favorite, will serve to the betterment of them...not us! It is a crapshoot that an unbound merger policy from a "board" (an arbitrator who has NEVER BEEN A JUDGE and two NON-VOTING and meaningless extras even if they BOTH made an alliance against the Arbitrator) that has NO GUIDELINES or boundaries! Just process.

Fact: The professional AND economic fate of the 5000+ pilots at US Airways INCLUDE the USAPA founders. The USAPA founders and the officers of USAPA, when they are voted in, have NO HIGHER CALLING to ascend to other than USAPA. The Founders, VOLUNTEERS, and OFFICERS are NOT AFRAID to assume the mantle of responsibility. Let our future rest on THEIR shoulders. There can be no higher calling than to serve our profession in this manner.

Fact: ALPA Nationals Officers, President (Continental), VP (United), Secretary (American Eagle) are in the union to preserve THEIR political interests. The Executive Council is made up of pilots OTHER than US Airways. Only the Treasurer is US Airways. Of course that is another "sore spot" that has indirectly left ALPA vulnerable at this airline but this discussion can wait.

Fact: The ALPA Concerned Pilots Committee (ACPC) is nothing more than a special interest group made up primarily of AWA pilots that want nothing other than to smear and defile the good names AND reputations of those PILOTS who make up the FOUNDERS, VOLUNTEERS AND OFFICERS of USAPA. The evidence for this proof can be found here and on the ALPA web boards and are simply UNFOUNDED. Most of what the ACPC cites as a foundation of THEIR legal opinion can be found (and has been for quite some time) at the USAPA website in the library. Read it at the USAPA web site http://usairlinepilots.org/library/default.htm and note the dates they were posted. USAPA IS HIDING NOTHING!!! USAPA is about CHOICE…pure and simple. What galls the minority is the FACT that, in any union, the MAJORITY RULES…pure and simple.

Fact: AWMEC Chairman's Message 15 Dec 2007 "....presentation of the list and what that means....very little, other than the completion of an administrative hurdle. Management cannot use or implement the Nicolau Award until BOTH MECs AND PILOT GROUPS RATIFY a joint agreement that contains the terms and conditions on how to implement the award and significant economic gains in many other areas." and "almost all the administrative sections in the JNC process have been TA’d for well over a year."

Fact: ACPC Update 21 Dec 2007 should be titled as:
ACPC “JEOPARDYâ€￾ PRESENTS MORE QUESTIONS THAN ANSWERS!
“If you’re in ALPA, your (Airline Career is) in JEOPARDY!â€￾
http://www.concernedpilots.org/DesktopModu...&Tabid=2912

ANSWER 1. "We held a meeting in DCA at the beginning of December and just concluded our first two organizing meetings of AWA pilots in Phoenix."

Question 1. Who is running ACPC?

ANSWER 2. "invited to address the AWA MEC meeting to summarize the purpose of our committee and outline our plan to talk to the pilots about the threat of losing ALPA representation and how it would destroy our professional careers at US Airways."

Question 2. Who's professional careers does the Nicolau award destroy and jeopardize if we KEEP ALPA, especially in light of the new law allowing pilots to fly to age 65 and thereby putting THEIR professional careers in jeopardy as well?

ANSWER 3. "Think about this: at all of our organizing meetings, we’ve had at least five senior-level ALPA staff members and one national officer on hand to provide information and an overview of the NMB process."

Question 3. How well have ALPA National and your "elected" MEC reps done, SO FAR, according to the posted record in the LEC FastReads?

ANSWER 4. "Why would you want to turn your career over to a one-lawyer experiment without rules and policies, a budget, or a plan to improve your wages and quality of life?

Question 4. Have you been to a USAPA road show lately? Have you been to the USAPA website lately? Why does ALPA continue to “play gamesâ€￾ and seek to “Monopolizeâ€￾ US Airways pilot careers?

ANSWER 5. "…dramatic quality-of-life enhancements for both the East and West pilots have already been tentatively agreed to."

Question 5. Have any "SUBSTATIVE" issues (like MONEY) been brought across the table instead of "ADMINISTRATIVE" (NON-ECONOMIC) issues that have already been tentatively agreed to FOR OVER A YEAR?

ANSWER 6. "The US Airways pilots cannot stand still – we are leaving too much money on the table and squandering opportunities to resolve the problems of our pilots."

Question 6. Is USAPA to blame for this? How can this be when USAPA was founded and has just recently filed cards with the NMB in only the last six months?

ANSWER 7. "The ACPC is busy gearing up for the coming months. We will be ready, and we will be strong. We will fight for ALPA to remain our bargaining representative, and we encourage you to work with us. Captain JR Baker America West Co-Chairman, ACPC Captain Bill Pollock US Airways Co-Chairman, ACPC."

Question 7. Is this who we have to look forward to, to lead ALL US Airways pilots in any "NEW" direction or more of the same from the "OLD GUARD" who promises to give you more of "their" same? Bill Pollock’s “recordâ€￾ is certainly nothing to be proud of… a man who was elected by the MEC, NOT the rank and file pilots?

ANSWER 8. “ALPA… We play games with US Airways Pilot careers.â€￾

Question 8. Who do YOU CHOOSE to trust YOUR CAREER to?

 

[pilot]

Outstanding post. Take NIC out of the equation and the AWA guys would be falling over themselves to get on board with USAPA.

Look back on the industry since deregulation and realize that the only two pilot groups who have managed to maintain some modicum of a reasonable contract have been the two who are not in ALPA. American and Southwest.

While I will be the first to blame the EAST pilot group for allowing the rape of our contracts over the years I equally blame ALPA national for not providing the leadership and guidance to stop what happened. A nationwide SOS should have been called and followed through on once our pension was on the table. But for that to happen ALL ALPA carriers would have had to pony up to the plate and, in reality, most other pilot groups were hoping, even counting, on the demise of U so that their own airlines would be saved. Hardly union solidarity.

USAPA has a long way to go but it will be beholden to the pilots of ONLY US Airways. East and West. If we can get the seniority mess squared away and find some true union leadership we can take back the profession from the teenager-like management of this company.

It's going to be difficult to rally all pilots who work at LCC but it can be done. One thing is certain: ALPA is not going to be around much longer at US Airways. They have failed BOTH pilot groups. And if the West guys can't see that they aren't looking hard enough.

 

[N924PS]

Outstanding post. Take NIC out of the equation and the AWA guys would be falling over themselves to get on board with USAPA.

Look back on the industry since deregulation and realize that the only two pilot groups who have managed to maintain some modicum of a reasonable contract have been the two who are not in ALPA. American and Southwest.

Would USAPA even exist at this time, but for the Nicolau Award? Had the result of the arbitration been more favorable to East's position there would likely be a joint contract by this time and USAPA would be non-existent.

Look back at the industry since deregulation and you will find that WN and AA have maintained the best finacials in the industry, never been in bankruptcy, and have the most likelihood of remaining strong and successful in the face of $100 barrel oil and a sagging economy. Quite a different atmosphere to negotiate a contract than US and HP's lot.

 

[sharktooth]

Look back at the industry since deregulation and you will find that WN and AA have maintained the best finacials in the industry, never been in bankruptcy, and have the most likelihood of remaining strong and successful in the face of $100 barrel oil and a sagging economy. Quite a different atmosphere to negotiate a contract than US and HP's lot.

Guess I am slow. I miss your point entirely.

Are you saying that the two major non-ALPA carriers who happen to be the most (relatively) successful carriers because their non-ALPA unions were not burdened with other carrier considerations while bargaining?

Are you saying the two companies were well run and could tolerate a non-ALPA union?

Other options present themselves so could you please clarify?

 

[N924PS]

Guess I am slow. I miss your point entirely.

Are you saying that the two major non-ALPA carriers who happen to be the most (relatively) successful carriers because their non-ALPA unions were not burdened with other carrier considerations while bargaining?

Are you saying the two companies were well run and could tolerate a non-ALPA union?

Other options present themselves so could you please clarify?

I'm saying they weren't negotatiating either in or on the precipice of bankruptcy, consequently they had a stronger negotiating position.

You guys seem to forget that USAir and PI had rather nice contracts, negotiated with ALPA as the bargaining agent prior to the mergers. In fact, the USAir contract was one of the best in terms of pay, retirement, scheduling, etc. in the industry.

In 1988 a USAir BAC-111 Captain was making more than a current B737/A320 Captain.

It didn't matter if it was an ALPA or non-ALPA union negotiating at AA and WN.

So you decided to be Sharky today rather than your alter-ego. ...wonder where you've been.

 

[sharktooth]

I'm saying they weren't negotatiating either in or on the precipice of bankruptcy, consequently they had a stronger negotiating position.

Thanks for the much needed clarification.

Most interesting direction you bring.

For a fact, I know when SWA was not doing too well (twice) the pilots took concessions to "help out" management, but then, they actually had a hand in management and the direction management took. They negotiated "insurance" (snapbacks as well as the usual, stock, etc.) that ALPA either never took advantage of or fumbled completely, at least at US, so that, instead of helping the company, the concessions simply allowed job security for incompetent management, something to seems to becoming a tradition at US.

It is at the "precipice" that a union can be strongest, if they so choose. ALPA chose not and the US pilots paid, and continue to pay for such irresponsibility. I am not saying it is all ALPAs fault, but instead of providing leadership they provided "leaders" with hair on fire, among other useless and costly "guidance".

 

[end_of_alpa]

Would USAPA even exist at this time, but for the Nicolau Award? Had the result of the arbitration been more favorable to East's position there would likely be a joint contract by this time and USAPA would be non-existent.

Look back at the industry since deregulation and you will find that WN and AA have maintained the best finacials in the industry, never been in bankruptcy, and have the most likelihood of remaining strong and successful in the face of $100 barrel oil and a sagging economy. Quite a different atmosphere to negotiate a contract than US and HP's lot.

Not to correct your post, but I would put this way:

"Had Nicolau been more logical and used a method that the MAJORITY of the East pilots could understand and ACCEPT" then your premise that "there would likely be a joint contract by this time and USAPA would be non-existent" would most likely have been the outcome. Remember, the definition of minority is what you think is right and everyone else does not.

Sadly, this is NOT the case and we are where we are now. If we pull together AFTER the election with USAPA in we might be able to salvage something. If ALPA remains in, it's every man for himself in this industry...GUARANTEED!

 

[N924PS]

I'm saying they weren't negotatiating either in or on the precipice of bankruptcy, consequently they had a stronger negotiating position.

You guys seem to forget that USAir and PI had rather nice contracts, negotiated with ALPA as the bargaining agent prior to the mergers. In fact, the USAir contract was one of the best in terms of pay, retirement, scheduling, etc. in the industry.

In 1988 a USAir BAC-111 Captain was making more than a current B737/A320 Captain. And way more than an WN B737 Captain, at that time.

It didn't matter if it was an ALPA or non-ALPA union negotiating at AA and WN.

So you decided to be Sharky today rather than your alter-ego. ...wonder where you've been.

 

[luvn737s]

End of ALPA wrote

Fact: ALPA = Nicolau rules.

ALPA actually = the rules that AAAMEC agreed to, nothing more.

Fact: USAPA = Majority Choice.

Please be a little more forthcoming. USAPA=blind following of unproven leaders on a single platform - vengeance.

Fact: Passing the “listâ€￾ to the company means nothing. SEE BELOW.

Here we agree. Because if U-SAPs carrys the day, the Nicolau list is fast-tracked with the abscence of a Transition Agreement (U-SAPS never signed on) or Merger Policy. So if you want Nic tomarrow, vote USAPA today.