ALPA/USAPA topic of the week

[AAA73Pilot]

All is not well in Alpa land. FYI:

Dear Jack:

Please accept this resignation of my position of Captain Representative for Council 32. After much deep soul searching during the past few days, I have come to the conclusion that ALPA as well as the MEC is broken beyond repair.

In my 33 years in ALPA, I have been on several committees, paid many assessments, fought the People Express war, walked Eastern picket lines and TWA F/A lines. I also picketed the White House when Bond was threatening to jail us for violations. This is not the same ALPA. ALPA used to have men of honor. Now it’s all secret mini-meetings in someone’s room, power trips and backstabbing.

When the true talent begins to leave one by one, seemingly a different one every day, as well as the taking out of nearly irreplaceable committee members simply so you can put your hopelessly clueless friend in the position strains credibility. I cannot represent my pilots in such a poisonous atmosphere. An atmosphere where even the man who ran against me in Boston has resigned all his positions.

The future holds a different path for me and I will ask my fellow pilots to join me on that path.

This resignation is effective on receipt.

Sincerely,

XXXXXXXXX

ALPA #046045-1

Council 032 Chairman

 

[luvthe9]

ALPA used to have men of honor. Now it’s all secret mini-meetings in someone’s room, power trips and backstabbing.








That sums it up nicely, also don't foget the "boys club" wants to hold on to thier 500,000+ salaries along with thier pension and all the other little perks, APLA national is just full of scum.

 

[end_of_alpa]

It is your collective POINT OF VIEW. No one disputes that it is a fact that you have a point of view, or a position. I think that fact is well established. It is the reasoning and justifications of your point of view that are certainly not fact, and therefore are subject to debate.

No one thinks that seniority is for sale. However your definition of seniority to be DOH to the exclusion of all else, including the specific intricacies and realities of our chosen profession and chosen employers, is the subject of debate. The West is certain that their seniority is not for sale either. So are most of the other pilots currently involved in M&A discussions. And based on my exposure to that situation, I can assure you that with very few exceptions, a straight DOH integration is not on anyone else's agenda but yours. It is in this realm that you are most certainly in the minority throughout the pilot community. (And I include many of your own moderate, rational East pilots in that community.) I guess we will see how the vote turns out. But from what I understand it is hard to find a pilot that actually admits to voting for LOA93, yet it passed anyway. I have a feeling that once USAPA loses the vote, you will once again be hard pressed to find an East pilot who admits to voting for ALPA simply to avoid confrontation with pilots like you out on the line.

Did it every occur to you that your feelings of being ostracized are a result of your own behavior since the beginning of your merger and even before? Of course not. In your eyes everything is always someone else's fault. Never your own. Your suffering and sacrifices are no more righteous than anyone else's, just because you endured it longer. Your Length Of Suffering (LOS, get it?) is a result of your career choices, and not transferable to others just because you think you endured enough and are entitled to more.

We may be a "minority" in the ALPA point of view, and therein lies YOUR problem. We here in the MAJORITY of East pilots are tired of the "majority" of ALPA pilots dictating to US what the "minority" of the formerly ALPA carriers are USED to tiredly referred to as THEIR AGENDA IS NOT THE NORM! I can assure you that YOUR group will be glad get ALL YOU CAN! That was the way it was when the FIRST proposed mergers of major carriers, UNITED and US Airways went. We WOULD have gotten "stapled" and I REMEMBER THAT! You probably wern't there.

We're not "blaming" anyone but ourselves. Only when we try to "fix it" with our own solutions do you ALPA guys CRY AND WINE that WE AREN'T CAPABLE of determining our own futures because the big, bad COMPANY is going to take advantage of us.

Look, you and the other ALPA guys are NOT GOING to change our minds. But know this: if WE SCREW IT UP, WE'LL take the blame ourselves because WE ARE NOT AFRAID TO FACE THE FUTURE OURSELVES.

And THAT, SIR, is what GALLS you ALPA guys SO MUCH!

You can stick you lenth of suffering somewhere else. We are choosing our career choices are YOU are not entitled to more.

GOOD LUCK AT UNITED!

 

[CactusFlyr]

Mine and +3,200 other "real US Airways" pilots. We are ostracized by the ALPA pilot community. It is not the way "I" feel. It is the way "WE" are treated. By you and 55,000 other real ALPA "Airline Pilots". Our seniority is NOT FOR SALE! Not my "opinion". IT IS OUR COLLECTIVE FACT!

It is a sad state when our West "brothers and sisters" want economically what we have all collectively known to be fundamentally a "principled" solution.

The principle is that your seniority only covers the jobs you brought to the equation, and slotted by relative position at that. None of your furloughed pilots can have an active pilots job- under ANY circumstance. Enjoy.

 

[end_of_alpa]

The principle is that your seniority only covers the jobs you brought to the equation, and slotted by relative position at that. None of your furloughed pilots can have an active pilots job- under ANY circumstance. Enjoy.

Our "furloughed" pilots ARE active! You been on vacation for a while? We don't have but a small handful on furlough anymore. They ARE ACTIVE PILOTS! So much for your "circumstances". Several are coming back as CAPTAINS on E-190. I'm in class with one. Let the whipsaw begin.

Looking forward to seeing you in court. I'll will be attending every session.

 

[jtwhat]

Our "furloughed" pilots ARE active! You been on vacation for a while? We don't have but a small handful on furlough anymore. They ARE ACTIVE PILOTS! So much for your "circumstances". Several are coming back as CAPTAINS on E-190. I'm in class with one. Let the whipsaw begin.

Looking forward to seeing you in court. I'll will be attending every session.

man are you thick when awa aquired usairways you had pilots on the street when the snap shot was done you had pilots on the street when the nic award(final and binding) you had people on the street. time for you to step into reality. Pretty nice for a furloughee to come back and into the left seat of a E190 yet are awa pilots are blocked from advancing because you(meaning every last east pilot that have no honor) felt from the beginning lets not be honorable and screw the west pilots any way we can(E190 B757 call sign etc etc)

 

[P51Pilot]

The principle is that your seniority only covers the jobs you brought to the equation, and slotted by relative position at that. None of your furloughed pilots can have an active pilots job- under ANY circumstance. Enjoy.

In the West case then seniority only covers jobs in PHX and LAS, and you have no rights to any jobs in PHL, CLT, BOS, LGA, and DCA. You brought none of those jobs to the equation as well as wide body international. Enjoy!

 

[end_of_alpa]

man are you thick when awa aquired usairways you had pilots on the street when the snap shot was done you had pilots on the street when the nic award(final and binding) you had people on the street. time for you to step into reality. Pretty nice for a furloughee to come back and into the left seat of a E190 yet are awa pilots are blocked from advancing because you(meaning every last east pilot that have no honor) felt from the beginning lets not be honorable and screw the west pilots any way we can(E190 B757 call sign etc etc)

Thick, huh? No Honor, Huh? Screw the West pilot, Huh? That has been the FURTHEST from our minds.

It's simple that you and your "brothers and sisters" somehow consider DOH a STAPLE JOB!

It's simple that you and your "brothers and sisters" somehow consider an ECONOMIC SOLUTION over a PRINCIPLED SOLUTION!

It's simple that you and your "brothers and sisters" somehow consider to make US pay for something the COMPANY will NEVER pay for!

It's simple that you and your "brothers and sisters" somehow consider ARBITRATION a no lose situation....throw it against the wall and see what sticks!

Lastly, It's simple that you and your "brothers and sisters" somehow consider ALPA the SOLUTION to your WINDFALL!

This issue will be with us through aviation history.....and the demise of ALPA will be the result. No national standards...no NATIONAL UNION.

THAT'S THE WAY IT WORKS!

 

[jtwhat]

Thick, huh? No Honor, Huh? Screw the West pilot, Huh? That has been the FURTHEST from our minds.

It's simple that you and your "brothers and sisters" somehow consider DOH a STAPLE JOB!

It's simple that you and your "brothers and sisters" somehow consider an ECONOMIC SOLUTION over a PRINCIPLED SOLUTION!

It's simple that you and your "brothers and sisters" somehow consider to make US pay for something the COMPANY will NEVER pay for!

It's simple that you and your "brothers and sisters" somehow consider ARBITRATION a no lose situation....throw it against the wall and see what sticks!

Lastly, It's simple that you and your "brothers and sisters" somehow consider ALPA the SOLUTION to your WINDFALL!

This issue will be with us through aviation history.....and the demise of ALPA will be the result. No national standards...no NATIONAL UNION.

THAT'S THE WAY IT WORKS!

Couple of quick question
1)Did you (east) agree to a T/A with specific langauge in it?
2)In that T/A was growth flying to shared by east and west?
3)In the T/A did you agree to Final and binding Arbitration?
Just a Few question if you answer yes to any and all of the question then you(east) are a bunch of whining babies that didnt get there way so they want to leave and take there toys.
Like I said no honor .

 

[EastUS]

I personally don't want you. It really doesn't matter to me if you are in ALPA or not. What I do believe is that many East pilots (Not all. And maybe not even most. But many) would be better served by ALPA than USAPA. I sure as heck know that the West doesn't want USAPA. So when you combine the West with those on the East side who understand reality and the big picture,

Allrighty there Sonny Boy...ummm...just HOW many actual years do you have at UAL? 🙄 ...and...ummm...I've got 2 full seconds to spare: Please list ANY/all reasons that people who've been around virtually "forever" by comparison, and personally observed Alpo in action for more time than you can likely even imagine, should be the LEAST bit concerned with your astonishingly patronizing, and purely pompous fantasies as to what constitutes "reality" or "the big picture"?...This oughta' be good

767jetz: "I said i don't care if you are in ALPA. I said nothing about you as a collective." Whew! Now..that's TRUE Unionism and "Fraternity"at it's finest 😉

767jetz: "Sorry you feel that way. It is my belief that the few of you here on this site do not have the best interest of ALL USAirways pilots in mind. " Ah yes..and; who better suited to "aribtrate" that set of interests than a UAL person? (Oh..wat a minute..You`'re on record as wanting Nic, which would prepare a convenient standard for seniority "relativity"/obliteration that just "MIGHT" suit your personal interests in the immediate future).....makes perfect "Alpo sense" 😉

"In Unity"...My arse 😉

 

[EastUS]

QUOTE (CactusFlyr @ Mar 9 2008, 01:22 PM)
The principle is that your seniority only covers the jobs you brought to the equation, and slotted by relative position at that. None of your furloughed pilots can have an active pilots job- under ANY circumstance. Enjoy"

Our "furloughed" pilots ARE active! You been on vacation for a while? We don't have but a small handful on furlough anymore. They ARE ACTIVE PILOTS! So much for your "circumstances". Several are coming back as CAPTAINS on E-190. I'm in class with one.

Interesting point = What' s actually the "relative" value of "Save Dave" over someone with many, many more years of time invested in flying for this operation, and who's back on the line and active? In the event of any furlough" I suppose that "Save Dave" should keep his position, and the east counterpart be again tossed to the curb...makes' "relatively"..."perfect sense" 😉 Let the west's "Righteous Position" clearly be fully seen for what it is..A bunch of purely opportunistic BS.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Couple of quick question
1)Did you (east) agree to a T/A with specific langauge in it?
2)In that T/A was growth flying to shared by east and west?
3)In the T/A did you agree to Final and binding Arbitration?
Just a Few question if you answer yes to any and all of the question then you(east) are a bunch of whining babies that didnt get there way so they want to leave and take there toys.
Like I said no honor .

ALPA might have agreed to all of that, but they never even polled the group. They also gave away the pensions, vacations, and the East profit sharing TO YOU, and you make more than the East folks do. How is that fair? And no, "WE" didn't agree to these things.

The entire reason the industry is in this quandary concerning seniority is because ALPA has NO EFFECTIVE MERGER POLICY. No pilot group WILL EVER agree to binding arbitration again, after the travesty of Nicolau. THIS IS ALL ALPA's FAULT! It's their fault that they didn't foresee such problems, and rather just "deleted" the seniority provisions in their merger policy to appease the UAL pilots.

The sooner ALPA is off this property the better for both sides. We can negotiate a real contract, put fences and protections where they need to be for both groups and get on with running the BEST airline in the US. Let's just hope that it happens REAL SOON, before the real nastiness of the crashing economy causes us to be noncompetitive.

 

[EastUS]

man are you thick when awa aquired usairways you had pilots on the street when the snap shot was done you had pilots on the street when the nic award(final and binding) you had people on the street. time for you to step into reality. Pretty nice for a furloughee to come back and into the left seat of a E190 yet are awa pilots are blocked from advancing because you(meaning every last east pilot that have no honor) felt from the beginning lets not be honorable and screw the west pilots any way we can(E190 B757 call sign etc etc)

Ah..the standard: "yet are awa pilots are blocked from advancing"......." because you(meaning every last east pilot that have no honor)"

Please tell me that you've actually noticed the irony inherent in whining about your personal greed not being instantly attended to, and yet following immediately with hypocritical tripe about your self-assigned, and evidently imaginary "honor" 🙄

I'd suggest that we simply agree to differ on the proper definition of Honor. I've yet to see any dictionary list such as "It's ALL about MEEEeeee!!!" 😉 I've always held the belief that it's more about doing what's Right......I think it best to stick with doing what's Right..and we certainly are worlds apart on that issue.

 

[jtwhat]

Ah..the standard: "yet are awa pilots are blocked from advancing"......." because you(meaning every last east pilot that have no honor)"

Please tell me that you've actually noticed the irony inherent in whining about your personal greed not being instantly attended to, and yet following immediately with hypocritical tripe about your self-assigned, and evidently imaginary "honor" 🙄

I'd suggest that we simply agree to differ on the proper definition of Honor. I've yet to see any dictionary list such as "It's ALL about MEEEeeee!!!" 😉 I've always held the belief that it's more about doing what's Right......I think it best to stick with doing what's Right..and we certainly are worlds apart on that issue.

No ever since the day we aquired your sorry arses we have been stagnet we were upgrading left and right and now nothing. The e190 AND tHE b757 SLOT WERE SUPPOSE TO BE SHARED not the way you guys made out all we got was a IOU. No personal greed it is you forgot were your sorry arse was 2 and 1/2 years ago..

 

[EastUS]

No ever since the day we aquired your sorry arses we have been stagnet we were upgrading left and right and now nothing. The e190 AND tHE b757 SLOT WERE SUPPOSE TO BE SHARED not the way you guys made out all we got was a IOU. No personal greed it is you forgot were your sorry arse was 2 and 1/2 years ago..

Ah...My mistake then..I'd thought that you were speaking earlier about "Honor", and not merely raging on over what you personally feel entitled you. Sorry.

"The e190 AND tHE b757 SLOT WERE SUPPOSE TO BE SHARED not the way you guys made out all we got was a IOU." Why haven't you taken that up with your ALPA Reps? The folks out your way have always held, (at least on these boards), that "everything" they-ALPA do/have done is the line pilots' fault..so..Have them fix it for you. "YOU are ALPA" after all.

twhat: "..time for you to step into reality", and we'll finally, all be able to talk soon.

Let's VOTE!!! 😉