AMFA......read on

[Bob Owens]

So tell us. How much should someone make at a fast food restaurant ?
And please don't use the union mantra, "A living wage".

Why not? If someone performs a task that benefits society, in other words contributes to the system that we live in, then their share should at be be a livable wage, that is a wage when applied to the standard 40 hour week that provides the ability to enjoy the benefits of being in that society. Does that mean everyone gets the same? No, some tasks carry more value than others but if the job it worth having someone do, then its worth paying them a livable wage to do it. If there isn't enough work of value to provide full employment then the workweek should be reduced. 

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

When low-wage workers have been able to organize, unionization is associated with higher wages and benefits for many, including food preparation workers, cashiers, cafeteria workers, childcare workers, cooks, housekeepers, and home-care aides (Schmitt et al. 2007).

How many of these require any education?
 
When you decided you want to pay 1000 dollars a month for child care let me know.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

If there isn't enough work of value to provide full employment then the workweek should be reduced. 

Yeah Bob, they call that part time.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

When low-wage workers have been able to organize, unionization is associated with higher wages and benefits for many, including food preparation workers, cashiers, cafeteria workers, childcare workers, cooks, housekeepers, and home-care aides (Schmitt et al. 2007).

So basically you want society to "step up" and make it comfortable for people to work menial jobs their whole lives? Besides the fact that none of these jobs require an education let's look further into the economics of it.
 
food preparation workers- define this further, are you talking about fast food or people that prepare food in a factory?
 
cashiers- Cashier is literally a no skill job. Scan a bar code, repeat, collect money. Maybe back in the day this job took some math skill, but not anymore. 
 
cafeteria workers- It is already fairly expensive to eat out. You can't really expect to eat out for less than $10.00 a person plus tip at the least. Restaurants already operate on razor thin profit margins. The reason cafeteria workers make so little is because otherwise they would price themselves right out of a job.
 
childcare workers-It is already getting cheaper for one parent to stop working because childcare has gotten so expensive. By raising the wage all you are really doing is forcing people out of the workplace. 
 
cooks-Some cooks make triple figure salaries. I have met 2 in my life that break 100k making only one meal a day. Of course that meal takes about 12 hours to prepare. This is a career that becomes what you make of it. 
 
housekeepers- This job is a triple whammy, no skills required, raising prices will price you out of a job, and you're competing with an illegal population. Good luck with that one.
 
home-care aides-again if you raise prices you price yourself right out of a job because people simply can't afford it.  The flip side of this is that low cost health care employees tend to be sketchy at best, while more expensive ones tend to be educated (RN's for instance). This is truly a service you usually get what you pay for.
 
My sister actually worked her way through college working as a waitress; she is now an RN and will be going back to school soon to get her Nurse Practitioner. Most of these jobs should be viewed as stepping stones to something better, not careers. There is a social danger in making someone too comfortable in a low skill job.  Have you considered that? 
 
You think like a typical liberal. You want to champion these things because it "makes you feel good" but you have no grasp of the economics of it.  Your post is typical liberal tripe. 

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

Don't you think that this is a bit off of the subject?
 
Information Pro or Con as to the representation of the mechanics by AMFA or the TWU/IAM Association, has nothing to do with the jobs through out this country and what pay scales they have. We work in the airline industry and what happens there effects us.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

You don't think a 15 dollar an hour minimum wage affects a group of employees locked in a contract? I personally think that would hurt every UNION employee in the business. It would be better to throw TWU to the curb and have AMFA negotiate shorter contracts, like say 2 years, because we all know 2 will turn into 6.
 
Is that "on topic" enough for you?
 
That's the problem with some of you, you can't see five inches in front of your face.

 

[Bob Owens]

So basically you want society to "step up" and make it comfortable for people to work menial jobs their whole lives?

Yes , society should step up and try and eliminate "menial jobs". By definition a "menial job" is one that is boring, degrading and pays poorly. If it pays well it still has two things against it but its no longer menial.

Work should enrich the human condition, in our society many tasks are required, some may be boring, even somewhat degrading, they do not need to be poorly paid as well. How much abuse should people be subjected to? Is it a sin to not be as gifted as others? The baseline for labor provided should at least provide the essentials. Today's minimum wage does not even come close, in a society with so much excess wealth that is a sin.

 

[Bob Owens]

How many of these require any education?
 
When you decided you want to pay 1000 dollars a month for child care let me know.

Pretty much all of them do, maybe not a College degree but there are many with College degrees in those jobs because those that do have jobs with degrees and no Unions are forced to work 80 hours a week so the Boss can be a billionaire. Like I said if we all could live off 40 hours a week then there would be a demand for more workers. I say Unions should all push for Doubletime over 40, even for non-union. The penalty would drive employers to hire more and those who are working could afford to work less. The billionares may take a hit, less for them to skim.

Maybe instead of paying $1000/month for Childcare , stay home and raise them yourself.

 

[FWAAA]

While $15/hr is an impressive bump from the current minimum wage, I'm championing something bigger, like $50/hr.    That's still a lot less than I make,  but nobody can live the middle-class dream on just $15/hr.   If we're going to mandate a huge bump in pay for people whose output isn't worth $15/hr (if it was worth $15/hr they'd already be getting $15/hr), then why stop at working-poor wages?   Why not just mandate that they get $100k/yr (my $50/hr proposal)?

If  doubling the minimum wage to $15/hr won't cause huge economic disruption, massive job losses and/or massive inflation, then neither will $50/hr.
 
It's stunning how many people in this country don't know jack #### about economics.    
 
Besides, if the minimum is raised to $50/hr, then AA's mechanics should be able to get something between $280/hr and $300/hr once the inflation works its way thru the economy.   Just think:   AMTs can get the same high hourly pay as 747 Captains.  
 
Except that 747 Captains would be making $3,000/hr once they get their inflationary raises.  

 

[AMFAinMIAMI]

You don't think a 15 dollar an hour minimum wage affects a group of employees locked in a contract? I personally think that would hurt every UNION employee in the business. It would be better to throw TWU to the curb and have AMFA negotiate shorter contracts, like say 2 years, because we all know 2 will turn into 6.
 
Is that "on topic" enough for you?
 
That's the problem with some of you, you can't see five inches in front of your face.

 
LaLiLuLeLo
 
cashiers, clerks, cooks, house keepers, child care have nothing to do with the airline industries workers, that work also has nothing to do with the organizing of the Mechanics
to bring AMFA here to AA.
 
How ever long the contract takes to get negotiated will depend on the negotiators of both the company and the union on the property at the time.
 
So what is your point, now you sound like 700UW.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

Pretty much all of them do, 

No they don't.
 

maybe not a College degree but there are many with College degrees in those jobs because those that do have jobs with degrees and no Unions are forced to work 80 hours a week so the Boss can be a billionaire. 

Bob this situation exist only in your own mind. I work an extremely technical job for a nonUNION employer and I have NEVER been FORCED to work overtime, much less 80 hours. My question is how the hell would you know anyway. You have been working the same job for how many years? Honestly, you have a pretty warped view of what life is like outside of the airline business. I have had alot of jobs, some skilled some not, some blue collar some white collar, and I can honestly say have I never had a job I disliked as much as the UNION job I had at American Airlines (mostly due to TWU propaganda and politics). By the way I have worked on the nonUNION side of American Airlines as well. 
 
The difference between where I work and where you work is where I work they don't fire 6 people in one day for pushing work off on others while they sleep.
 
The purpose of a UNION is to enforce a labor contract, not to defend laziness and stupidity. Maybe you can get back to that role if AMFA takes over. If stupid, lazy people want to get themselves fired I say let them. Stop defending them when it has nothing to do with contract.
 

Maybe instead of paying $1000/month for Childcare , stay home and raise them yourself.

I don't have kids Bob. In many situations the husband or wife has had to stop working because childcare was eating up their check. They were literally working for free. What if you were a single parent? Still think $15 an hour is a good idea for a child care worker? The economics don't work Bob. We can argue to infinity and it does not matter if it is right or wrong because at the end of the day the math just does not work.
 
That is the flip side of offering a daily service (or 5 days a week). You have to keep it cheap or you price yourself out of a job. Your ability to charge is dictated by what other people make. For that reason you will always be on the low end of the income spectrum.
 

LaLiLuLeLo
 
cashiers, clerks, cooks, house keepers, child care have nothing to do with the airline industries workers, that work also has nothing to do with the organizing of the Mechanics
to bring AMFA here to AA.

Don't tell me, tell WeAAsles.  He opened the door I simply stepped through it.

 

[La Li Lu Le Lo]

While $15/hr is an impressive bump from the current minimum wage, I'm championing something bigger, like $50/hr.    That's still a lot less than I make,  but nobody can live the middle-class dream on just $15/hr.   If we're going to mandate a huge bump in pay for people whose output isn't worth $15/hr (if it was worth $15/hr they'd already be getting $15/hr), then why stop at working-poor wages?   Why not just mandate that they get $100k/yr (my $50/hr proposal)?

If  doubling the minimum wage to $15/hr won't cause huge economic disruption, massive job losses and/or massive inflation, then neither will $50/hr.
 
It's stunning how many people in this country don't know jack #### about economics.    
 
Besides, if the minimum is raised to $50/hr, then AA's mechanics should be able to get something between $280/hr and $300/hr once the inflation works its way thru the economy.   Just think:   AMTs can get the same high hourly pay as 747 Captains.  
 
Except that 747 Captains would be making $3,000/hr once they get their inflationary raises.  

Exactly.

 

[southwind]

If the median wage had kept pace with productivity growth over the last 40 years, it would now be $28.42 instead of $16.30. In other words, an $18.67 minimum wage sounds shockingly high because the already affluent have captured most of the economic growth in the last 40 years, not because the economy hasn’t seen the kind of productivity growth consistent with that kind of minimum wage growth.

http://www.epi.org/publication/lagging-minimum-wage-reason-americans-wages/

 
 

 
This policy choice is clear when one looks at the evidence. First, unionization has held up much better in the public sector, where employers have less ability to fight organizing drives. Second, in 2007, the share of non-union workers who said they wanted to be represented by a union or similar organization reached an all-time high of over 50 percent (Freeman 2007). There is a growing wedge between the desire to organize and bargain collectively, and workers’ ability to do so. And, third, even the most obvious form of employer aggressiveness—the firing of workers who are trying to organize—has risen sharply in recent decades, according to the National Labor Relations Board (Schmitt and Zipperer 2007).
 
The fact is that the decline of unions can explain approximately one-third of the growth of wage inequality among men and approximately one-fifth among women since the 1970s (Western and Rosenfeld 2011). This rising wage inequality is the key driver behind stagnant wages for workers at the bottom. When low-wage workers have been able to organize, unionization is associated with higher wages and benefits for many, including food preparation workers, cashiers, cafeteria workers, childcare workers, cooks, housekeepers, and home-care aides (Schmitt et al. 2007).

http://www.epi.org/publication/why-americas-workers-need-faster-wage-growth/

So, in closing, your saying you'd pay $9 for a whopper. Got it!
 

Why not? If someone performs a task that benefits society, in other words contributes to the system that we live in, then their share should at be be a livable wage, that is a wage when applied to the standard 40 hour week that provides the ability to enjoy the benefits of being in that society. Does that mean everyone gets the same? No, some tasks carry more value than others but if the job it worth having someone do, then its worth paying them a livable wage to do it. If there isn't enough work of value to provide full employment then the workweek should be reduced. 

So, if Joe puts the lug nuts on the left rear wheel, is single and no kids and Tom puts the lug nuts of the right rear wheel, is married and 5 kids, Tom should be paid more, in order to attain the union standard "Living Wage", correct?
 

Don't you think that this is a bit off of the subject?
 
Information Pro or Con as to the representation of the mechanics by AMFA or the TWU/IAM Association, has nothing to do with the jobs through out this country and what pay scales they have. We work in the airline industry and what happens there effects us.

Agreed. Why do certain people here have a problem with the mechanics having their own union? Don't hear them bitchin' about the pilots!

 

[TRAVIS]

 
 
So, in closing, your saying you'd pay $9 for a whopper. Got it!
 
So, if Joe puts the lug nuts on the left rear wheel, is single and no kids and Tom puts the lug nuts of the right rear wheel, is married and 5 kids, Tom should be paid more, in order to attain the union standard "Living Wage", correct?
 
Agreed. Why do certain people here have a problem with the mechanics having their own union? Don't hear them bitchin' about the pilots!

1.  Go to the airport and you will pay $9.00 for a whopper.
2.  Joe will still have his money when Tom's wife and kids leave him and has to pay alimony and child support but they should make the same for the same job just Joe is smarter.
3.  AMT's in the Old Days years ago did the flag in and push backs,fuel and lav dump,tows and even brake rides but over time those jobs were given to ramp by the unions to up the pay for the ramp, So as I see it their is not much more they can FARM-OUT from the AMT's to the ramp any more and the Unions let the company's Farm out our AMT Licensed A&P work and no telling who gets what from that so why do you think they care what union we are in, It's not that they are looking out for our best interests now is it. So their is your Union standard living wage for you.
4. And people don't understand why we need our own union. It has taken many years to get to this point but its time for a change before my A&P Licence isn't worth the ink on the paper or a whopper...  

 

[700UW]

And mechanics voted to give up the work, it wasn't taken from them.