herkav8r said:
Herk,
Think this one up yourself or is this a 'cut-N-paste' from the USAir board?
:huh: UT
Bend Over Everyone
- Thread starter blueskies4ever
- Start date
Herk,
Think this one up yourself or is this a 'cut-N-paste' from the USAir board?
:huh: UT
No experience. I was furloughed. Not a pretty job market if you want any where near the same pay and benefits. That was even after the first round of cuts.
"Some times it is better to fight another day then go on unemployment."
I certainly believe that often to be true, but in this case, at least one of the things they are asking you to forfeit will not return, no matter what fight you put in later on. If they cancel the pension, then all that "equity sweat" that you saved, goes right out the window.
If the PBGC pays what you otherwise would have gotten, the disregard. Even then, one still has to worry about the PBGC themselves, since it is apparently not doing to well and one option to keep it solvent would be to lower payouts.
Although, this may be a really smart ploy by UAL, if what somone mentioned about the PBGC protecting the pension is true. That assertion was, that the only employee group who stod to lose, was the pilots, since their amount was above the PBGC max limit. If that is true, then UAL can set up a fund, that makes up for the shortfall.
I certainly believe that often to be true, but in this case, at least one of the things they are asking you to forfeit will not return, no matter what fight you put in later on. If they cancel the pension, then all that "equity sweat" that you saved, goes right out the window.
If the PBGC pays what you otherwise would have gotten, the disregard. Even then, one still has to worry about the PBGC themselves, since it is apparently not doing to well and one option to keep it solvent would be to lower payouts.
Although, this may be a really smart ploy by UAL, if what somone mentioned about the PBGC protecting the pension is true. That assertion was, that the only employee group who stod to lose, was the pilots, since their amount was above the PBGC max limit. If that is true, then UAL can set up a fund, that makes up for the shortfall.
At some point in your life you have to have a gut check. What's to say this company sticks around after these cuts. It will be something else, then something else.
Why do they want these cuts till 2010? Didn't our so-called new contracts back in 2003 say that they couldn't re-negociate again and ask for more concessions?
TILTON NEEDS TO GO. He is worthless as a UAL ceo. He doesn't understand the business. Isn't it funny how they wait till after the election to ask for these cut's. Not that it would have made any difference.
Why do they want these cuts till 2010? Didn't our so-called new contracts back in 2003 say that they couldn't re-negociate again and ask for more concessions?
TILTON NEEDS TO GO. He is worthless as a UAL ceo. He doesn't understand the business. Isn't it funny how they wait till after the election to ask for these cut's. Not that it would have made any difference.
AFA and IAM need to go too. The only power they have is to convince the company to spend millions of dollars on yet another consultant.uafa21 said:
Spacewatress - I agree. Collectively we send the unions millions each year and for what? Losing pensions, pay cuts, less benefits and the list goes on and on.
The Bushies are getting what they wanted, Tilton is one of them. Before anyone votes for these new proposals they need to know exactly what they are voting for. Last time we did this in 2003, everytime you questioned work rules the answer was it was in there and you voted for it. Bulls**t.
This thing needs to be specifically spelled out. All the outsourcing, all work rule changes, the paycuts and certainly the pensions. I want to know exactly what my pension will be when I retire. I have 15 years with the company and I don't want a bs answer like I can max out at $44,000 because that will not be true. I will be entitled to something. the ones losing everything will be employees with 7 years or less. THEY NEED TO KNOW THIS.
Everyone needs to know exactly how they will be affected. I don't think this will pass all the unions, but I also thought Kerry had a better chance against Bush.
The Bushies are getting what they wanted, Tilton is one of them. Before anyone votes for these new proposals they need to know exactly what they are voting for. Last time we did this in 2003, everytime you questioned work rules the answer was it was in there and you voted for it. Bulls**t.
This thing needs to be specifically spelled out. All the outsourcing, all work rule changes, the paycuts and certainly the pensions. I want to know exactly what my pension will be when I retire. I have 15 years with the company and I don't want a bs answer like I can max out at $44,000 because that will not be true. I will be entitled to something. the ones losing everything will be employees with 7 years or less. THEY NEED TO KNOW THIS.
Everyone needs to know exactly how they will be affected. I don't think this will pass all the unions, but I also thought Kerry had a better chance against Bush.
Hey, he's taking a 15% pay cut.uafa21 said:
Boy, I sure hope he will be able to feed his family on the $600,000+ that he's left to survive on. :down:uafa21 said:
What you may be entitled to is a slap on the back for a job well done. When they cancel pensions, not everyone will get something from the PBGC. The PBGC only gaurantees pensions of those people who are able to recieve benifits at the date of the pension termnation, i.e 20 years of service and 50 yrs old. If you don't fit into this group, you won't get any gaurantees when you retire. Good luck
Everyone now --
"2-4-6-8 GG pillow liquidate"
I have tried to stay upbeat about this whole situation. I have crossed my fingers and prayed that our company would turn the corner. But after reading the proposal (whatever you call it) on the IAM website, I want to PUKE. I am in a non hub location where I will be merged with the ramp who have for the most (not all) part not wanted to work. From the beginning of my employment, if I wanted to transfer to the ramp, I would have gone to the bottem of the list, I worked like a dog and took a lot of crap during the summer of 2000 while the ramp improved their card and domino game, it took me 10 years to top out while junior ramp agents topped out at 5, and on and on and on. I am now a "bitter party of one." Employees employed during the US purchase fiasco must understand how we feel. The ramp is very senior at most non-hub stations. The IAM better remember that we pay dues also and they did not fight for our own PCE people to be merged ( I'm talking AF and CTO locations) What about reservations? They are PCE, let them merge with the nearest airport. The IAM needs to get out of bed with ramp. I feel like I am actually talking like a PRO-AMFA mechanic now. :angry: :angry:
"2-4-6-8 GG pillow liquidate"
I have tried to stay upbeat about this whole situation. I have crossed my fingers and prayed that our company would turn the corner. But after reading the proposal (whatever you call it) on the IAM website, I want to PUKE. I am in a non hub location where I will be merged with the ramp who have for the most (not all) part not wanted to work. From the beginning of my employment, if I wanted to transfer to the ramp, I would have gone to the bottem of the list, I worked like a dog and took a lot of crap during the summer of 2000 while the ramp improved their card and domino game, it took me 10 years to top out while junior ramp agents topped out at 5, and on and on and on. I am now a "bitter party of one." Employees employed during the US purchase fiasco must understand how we feel. The ramp is very senior at most non-hub stations. The IAM better remember that we pay dues also and they did not fight for our own PCE people to be merged ( I'm talking AF and CTO locations) What about reservations? They are PCE, let them merge with the nearest airport. The IAM needs to get out of bed with ramp. I feel like I am actually talking like a PRO-AMFA mechanic now. :angry: :angry:
Borescope said:
FYI,
I know people who are receiving (or could receive) their PBGC cheese from their EAL pension plan.
As long as your ‘vested’ (at least 5 years) you will receive your time in service minus the first year up to the PBGC maximum.
It doesn’t matter how old you were on plan termination, can’t collect till your at least 55 though.
Check out : http://www.pbgc.gov/
And for the M&R:
http://www.amfa9.org/waypoints/pension.htm
SkyNet has a pension/PBGC Q&A page also.
B) UT
Some quick number crunching for Mechanics (using round figures)
They want 100 million per year from AMFA
There are 6,000 AMFA members
That is $16,666 each - per year
which equates to about a 27% pay cut
and that doesn't include the pension grab
But Tilton and the other top guys are taking a 15% cut
and that doesn't include the bonuses they'll be passing out
'No Brainer' is about the best descirption of this.
Anyone who would go along with it obviously has no brain.
They want 100 million per year from AMFA
There are 6,000 AMFA members
That is $16,666 each - per year
which equates to about a 27% pay cut
and that doesn't include the pension grab
But Tilton and the other top guys are taking a 15% cut
and that doesn't include the bonuses they'll be passing out
'No Brainer' is about the best descirption of this.
Anyone who would go along with it obviously has no brain.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,721
This is a tough proposal; some provisions are closer to American business but some are well below standard for other industries and for other airlines.
I do think UA is asking for much deeper cuts than are necessary, particularly in light of the recent drops in fuel which are likely to accelerate going into 2005. Nonetheless, UAL has the power of the bankruptcy process behind them and can extract what it wishes.
If there is a consolation in this, the cuts being proposed will put United employees so far below industry average that another airline will almost certainly acquire United at some point in the future. Unlike US, UA still possesses a very strong network and a modern, cost efficient fleet.
Industry consolidation could very well begin shortly into 2005 if fuel prices stabilize and airlines are able to hedge their fuel to limit price volatility going forward. Although other carriers aren’t exactly flush with cash, they can convince outside investors to provide the cash needed to pull off an acquisition if the costs are low. There clearly is too much domestic legacy carrier capacity and the only way it can really be eliminated is by eliminating duplicate hubs. Ironically, UA’s hubs and its international network are some of the strongest in the industry but are operated by one of the weaker carriers.
Just as happened at US, each successive capacity cut makes UA less efficient; no carrier in the industry has ever cut capacity and seen costs go down. Conversely, the reason AA, DL, and the LCCs are all adding capacity is because that is how costs are driven down. US has industry competitive costs for each element in its cost structure (each employee’s salary and benefits, aircraft and facility leases etc) but overall costs are still too high because they are not being efficiently used. After this round of cuts, UA employees will be paid well below average compared to other legacy carriers. Given that employees are still 30% or more or an airline’s costs, United’s employees look very attractive when placed in another carrier’s system where they will be used more efficiently. Granted, UA employees will probably get a raise if they are acquired by another carrier because UA employees will probably be paid less than the acquiring carrier’s employees, but UA employees are still less expensive given the absence of pension obligations. Terminating the pension plans eliminates a big chunk of the costs that make United a legacy carrier and provides less incentive for employees to stick around for a lifetime career.
Some of you may think I’m nuts but the best thing United employees might hope for is to be acquired by another airline. It is clear that left on its own, United will continue to cut employee salaries and benefits and still be unable to create a viable airline. And don’t doubt for a minute that some of the LCCs, and maybe some of the legacies, will increase their competitive pressure on United. Some of you may choose to leave United while some of you may hope to be acquired by another airline but it is increasingly less likely that you will work for an independent United Airlines without continuing to take further wage cuts.
All the best to each of you in the months ahead….
I do think UA is asking for much deeper cuts than are necessary, particularly in light of the recent drops in fuel which are likely to accelerate going into 2005. Nonetheless, UAL has the power of the bankruptcy process behind them and can extract what it wishes.
If there is a consolation in this, the cuts being proposed will put United employees so far below industry average that another airline will almost certainly acquire United at some point in the future. Unlike US, UA still possesses a very strong network and a modern, cost efficient fleet.
Industry consolidation could very well begin shortly into 2005 if fuel prices stabilize and airlines are able to hedge their fuel to limit price volatility going forward. Although other carriers aren’t exactly flush with cash, they can convince outside investors to provide the cash needed to pull off an acquisition if the costs are low. There clearly is too much domestic legacy carrier capacity and the only way it can really be eliminated is by eliminating duplicate hubs. Ironically, UA’s hubs and its international network are some of the strongest in the industry but are operated by one of the weaker carriers.
Just as happened at US, each successive capacity cut makes UA less efficient; no carrier in the industry has ever cut capacity and seen costs go down. Conversely, the reason AA, DL, and the LCCs are all adding capacity is because that is how costs are driven down. US has industry competitive costs for each element in its cost structure (each employee’s salary and benefits, aircraft and facility leases etc) but overall costs are still too high because they are not being efficiently used. After this round of cuts, UA employees will be paid well below average compared to other legacy carriers. Given that employees are still 30% or more or an airline’s costs, United’s employees look very attractive when placed in another carrier’s system where they will be used more efficiently. Granted, UA employees will probably get a raise if they are acquired by another carrier because UA employees will probably be paid less than the acquiring carrier’s employees, but UA employees are still less expensive given the absence of pension obligations. Terminating the pension plans eliminates a big chunk of the costs that make United a legacy carrier and provides less incentive for employees to stick around for a lifetime career.
Some of you may think I’m nuts but the best thing United employees might hope for is to be acquired by another airline. It is clear that left on its own, United will continue to cut employee salaries and benefits and still be unable to create a viable airline. And don’t doubt for a minute that some of the LCCs, and maybe some of the legacies, will increase their competitive pressure on United. Some of you may choose to leave United while some of you may hope to be acquired by another airline but it is increasingly less likely that you will work for an independent United Airlines without continuing to take further wage cuts.
All the best to each of you in the months ahead….
UAL-TEC
I read the same thing earlier, except they were going to subtract 3 years because UA has not added to the fund in three years.
I think that may mean that people with 5-8 years with the company may not get a pension at all. You are correct I will get some pention it would be 15 years of service less the 3 years. So I would have 12 years vested. I can not get anything till age 55 and if I wait till 65 that number would go up. At that time I would only get a pension equal to 12 years of service and that may be discounted as well. Not much to look forward to, but I will take it, I just hope to live to at least a hundred.
The ones that will really be hurt are the retired pilots. They will only max out at $44,000 per year. Those that have retired will really feel a pinch. Like I say, management decided not to raise fares now they lose money and want all the employee's to basically subsidize the company.
I read the same thing earlier, except they were going to subtract 3 years because UA has not added to the fund in three years.
I think that may mean that people with 5-8 years with the company may not get a pension at all. You are correct I will get some pention it would be 15 years of service less the 3 years. So I would have 12 years vested. I can not get anything till age 55 and if I wait till 65 that number would go up. At that time I would only get a pension equal to 12 years of service and that may be discounted as well. Not much to look forward to, but I will take it, I just hope to live to at least a hundred.
The ones that will really be hurt are the retired pilots. They will only max out at $44,000 per year. Those that have retired will really feel a pinch. Like I say, management decided not to raise fares now they lose money and want all the employee's to basically subsidize the company.
uafa21 said:
And that is only if they are 65 or older when the plan terminates, otherwise it is quite a bit less.
