Bend Over Everyone

[Borescope]

This attitude is is becoming the prevailing attitude in U.S. society and real soon we airline employees won't have the money to buy your house,new car,new appliance,or a 100 other things,and this is going to drive down YOUR wages and benefits or worse,your employer laying YOU off.


If my wages and retirement is reduced too much I will walk and work somewhere else other than the airline business for 10 more years.

[post="198582"][/post]​

Going(nowhere),
You have a double standard here. If your wages get driven down and you walk, there will be those that stay. And as you said they won't be able to "buy your house,new car,new appliance,or a 100 other things". Then "this is going to drive down YOUR wages and benefits or worse,your employer will be laying YOU off".

Your not making much sense :blink:

 

[Borescope]

If fares increases are held long enough, rational competitors will see the added value to raising their fares as well.

[post="198639"][/post]​

Do you think a management is going to let there airline bleed in hopes that their competors are going to raise fares? Not likely. The other carriers would just watch them bleed to death.

The reason the Expedia and Travelocity's are out there is because the airlines have to many ASM. The seats that they can't sell are "dumped" on these discounters in hopes of obtaining a little revenue from an otherwise empty seat. Until supply and demand come more in line with each other there isn't going to be many fare increases.

 

[Borescope]

They want 100 million per year from AMFA
There are 6,000 AMFA members
That is $16,666 each - per year
which equates to about a 27% pay cut (??????????????????)
and that doesn't include the pension grab

They want 191 million per year from ALPA
There are 7,000 ALPA members
That is $27285 each - per year
which equates to about a 13% pay cut (?????????????????)
(and that doesn't include the pension grab either, with ALPA members losing MUCH MUCH more than ANY other group on the property-you forgot to mention that)

[post="198696"][/post]​

That is BS. Your comparing apples to oranges. The mechanics don't make the hundereds of thousand that the pilots make. The bottom line is not the 16000 the AMFA loses or the 27000 that ALPA loses, because we all know that you will still be able to comfortably live on whats let over. Sure you may have to forgo buying that new car, but you probably won't have to sell anything. AMFA is taking a bigger hit than ALPA.......Apples to Apples.......27% to 13%. Heck under your analysis Tilton is losing "MUCH MUCH more". He's giving up over $100,000 in salary. How is he ever going to feed his family on that reduced salary of only $600,000?

 

[ualdriver]

First of all, your percentages are absolutely, positively wrong. You're basing that assumpion on TECH's flawed logic.

So I guess what you're saying, Borescope is that since an average ALPA member makes more than say, the average AMFA member (you'd probably be right on that one) ALPA deserves to take a "larger" pay cut both percentage wise and gross dollar amount wise. Is that what you're saying? (We did by the way.)

So if that is what you're saying, I'm sure that you would agree that the average AMFA member makes more than the typcial IAM and AFA member, as your trade union represents largely skilled labor and these other trade unions do not. Does that mean AMFA should step up to the plate and take a larger paycut, then say a flight attendant? I mean, using your logic, a flight attendant only pulling in 25K a year can't certainly afford the same pay cut that a 50K mechanic can afford? Does this mean we'll see you advocating on this board that you're willing to take a larger pay cut because you can "afford" it compared to a flight attendant or perhaps a cleaner? Apples to Apples right?

If that's not what you meant, then please clarify?

 

[UAL_TECH]

"Some quick number crunching for Mechanics (using round figures)

They want 100 million per year from AMFA
There are 6,000 AMFA members
That is $16,666 each - per year
which equates to about a 27% pay cut (??????????????????)
and that doesn't include the pension grab

They want 191 million per year from ALPA
There are 7,000 ALPA members
That is $27285 each - per year
which equates to about a 13% pay cut (?????????????????)
(and that doesn't include the pension grab either, with ALPA members losing MUCH MUCH more than ANY other group on the property-you forgot to mention that)

TECH, if you are even IMPLYING that somehow AMFA is giving up more than ALPA (or ANY other group for that matter), I suggest you had better check your "quick number crunching" again. I posted that FACT before, but as usual you resort to your pilot bashing propaganda. Every ALPA member on the property would gladly exchange the combination of this cut and the last paycut with any other union on the property.

[post="198696"][/post]​

Ualdriver,

Don’t forget to consider that the layoffs of our Indy and Oakland employees (AMFA/IAM) are permanent. Life time recall in this situation is moot. Also consider that our next round of ‘surplus’ support employees (AMFA/IAM) will also be permanent as these positions will be outsourced. Gone, permanently!!! 100% pay cut for most employees and the few line AMT’s that are left will be making considerably less.

I don’t begrudge you that that the pilot group took a hell of a beating on the retirement.
But let’s look at the ‘Big Picture’.
As the airlines bankrupt the PBGC, do you think that the government will do a ‘bail out’?
I don’t see that a ‘bail out’ will ever happen.
They will just say ‘tough nuts - you should have planned better’.
Then what do we have?
We are all going to be hosed on this one and we’ll take a few other PBGC recipients with us as well.

The realities are that although the pilot group is taking one hell of a beating, you’ll still have 'a job' making a decent wage.

We support employees (AMFA/IAM) won’t have either!!!

Take Care,
B) UT

 

[JungleClone]

WorldTraveler, you're exactly right and your point is well taken. None of the major airlines have any idea of how to truly fix the current problem. Nobody has happened upon the magic formula yet. So the only alternative they're left with is to continue to dramatically cut costs in the hope that oil will eventually rebound. But that isn't going to happen. People who believe we'll see a return to $25 and $30 a barrel oil prices need to educate their naivete. Peak oil production is fast upon us. And its' impact on the global economy will be more devastating than anything we've ever seen Think about it. Virtually every single everyday product is a byproduct of petroleum. And with no significant investment in alternative energy sources happening, we're in a bit of a spot. Do you think it's just a coincidence that U.S. troops are currently deployed in countries with the last known oil/natural gas fields?

My point is that if this industry is going to survive for the long term, it MUST find a way to neutralize its exposure to rising oil prices. I'll be the first to say that I honestly don't know how you do that. You can be the most cost-conscious airline in the world (Southwest) and it will still eventually catch up to you. My opinion is that the closest thing to a solution is starting to play out already: several large, major airlines will go away, either via consolidation with Uncle Sam's help (once they finally realize it's the best hope for this industry and our economy, and that deregulation as we currently know it no longer works) or via Chapter 7 liquidations. It's the only possiblity. That will reduce enough capacity and competitors to give the remaining airlines the ability to increase fares, which is necessary for EVERY carrier. There will still be plenty of competition out there. We must remember that it's not every American's God-given right to pay $250 round trip from New York to California!

So let's get back to the issue of cost cuts. Sure, Tilton and management team should know the risks of further wage/benefit/pension cuts. They should know that as much as they continue to preach great customer service and continuing our "good work", reality is that service levels and morale/motivation will take a steep nose-dive. People get tired of being beaten down. This airline has been on a slow death-spiral for over 4 years now. Nothing but constant negativity. And each time we think it can't get any worse and we think we're climbing back out of it, another setback arrives. I'm sure locusts are next!! But they have no choice. Right now, cost-cutting is their only weapon for survival. To even give United a chance at being around when this industry rights itself (if it ever does), costs must come down considerably. So the question inevitably becomes for each employee: is it really worth it for me to endure this? For many, that answer is going to be a resounding "no", either because financially they simply cannot afford these additional cuts, or because they're just fed up and want a chance at some sort of stable future that they'll never get at United. The mass exodus is sure to take place. People are simply fed up. And to be honest, my reading of the tea leaves is that the majority of employees at United don't have an ounce of faith that Tilton and his team can fix this company. So while they'll continue to cut costs because it's their only option, they should hopefully be smart enough to realize that they will inevitably drive out hundreds, if not thousands, of workers who are just plain tired of it or cannot afford it. And what they'll be left with is a bitter, beaten down, un-motivated workforce without an ounce of trust in the folks who run it. Sounds like a bad recipe to me, which is why I stand by my prediction that Tilton and The Boys won't be around to see United exit bankruptcy, if in fact, we do exit.

 

[Borescope]

Since an average ALPA member makes more than say, the average AMFA member, ALPA deserves to take a "larger" pay cut both percentage wise and gross dollar amount wise.

[post="198778"][/post]​

This is your words not mine. However, I won't disagree with you on this point.

 

[Fly]

And the average AMFA member deserves to take a "larger" pay cut both percentage wise and gross dollar amount wise than an AFA member.

 

[goingboeing]

Going(nowhere),
You have a double standard here. If your wages get driven down and you walk, there will be those that stay. And as you said they won't be able to "buy your house,new car,new appliance,or a 100 other things". Then "this is going to drive down YOUR wages and benefits or worse,your employer will be laying YOU off".

Your not making much sense :blink:

[post="198762"][/post]​

I"ll go into a Business that never experiences a downturn.[Mortician]
I almost did this anyway before I chose an aviation career.

Now you tell me if it makes more sense to stay at a low pay AA or become a mortician for 10 years.

 

[UAL_TECH]

And the average AMFA member deserves to take a "larger" pay cut both percentage wise and gross dollar amount wise than an AFA member.

[post="198811"][/post]​

Fly,

Always respected the AFA for not buying in to the ESOP scam!!!
Only smart ones out of the whole group (IMHO).

Take Care,
B) UT

 

[Fly]

I felt that was a lucky move too. But it wasn't because we were smart, it was because they wanted more than we could afford to take to be part of it. But then they paid us back with all those foreign domiciles...tsk tsk

 

[ualdriver]

1) I don't think that the government will let the PBGC fail when push does come to shove.

2) Borescope, again, it's hypocritical to say that it's OK for ALPA to take larger paycuts both percentage-wise and gross-wise when you're not willing to take a larger cut yourself to cover those who make less than you. In a perfect world, the guys who make the most should probably take a larger cut than the guys pulling in 20K a year, but the unions would never let that happen.

3) You guys can argue about the price of oil going up, down or sideways all day long. The price of oil is impossible to predict.

In my opinion, there is NO WAY any airline is going to willingly cut large amounts of domestic capacity. It's not going to happen unless there's a Chapter 7, and unless one of the unions on this property "burn the house down," it looks like it probably won't be UAL giving the industry a much needed capacity break. So what are we doing? Well, to me it looks like Tilton and the gang are saying that since no one is going to give it up willingly, we'll bring our costs down to meet this new "economic reality." If you look at our results through Sept '04, we have had a net loss of 960M, including 389M of bankruptcy reorganization costs. Let's take a worst case scenario and extrapolate that out to 1.3B that we're going to lose for the entire year (net) and say that 519M of that will be bankruptcy reorganization costs, again extrapolated. Tilton and the boys say they have another 2B to cut out of the company between this round of pay cuts, non-labor cuts, etc before we exit bankruptcy.

So let's say we exit bankruptcy next spring/summer and Tilton almost gets 2B in his aforementioned cuts. Let's say he gets 1.7B, 85% of his plan, because not all plans are perfect. Even if oil stays at $50-55 barrel, United is profitable. It's making money. In '04, we might lose around 1.3B a year. 1.7B in cuts were made for '05. That means we're 400M profitable. Actually, probably close to 1B for the year possible in profit because we're going to lose that 519M in reorganization expenses that we had in '04 because we'll be out of bankruptcy most of the year. So here we are, a major hub and spoke carrier making money at 50 bucks a barrel in oil. If the price of oil goes down to historical norms, ADD another 1B+ in profit. See why the banks wanna stick around and make some money? The above are rough numbers based upon my opinion. Guys, barring another major catastrophic terrorist event/war, and assuming all of the unions can work something out with this latest cut, there might be some light at the end of this tunnel. This time it might not be a train.

 

[The Ronin]

Better subtract a couple hundred million from that bottom line in bonuses for management for their "superior management during bankruptcy and return to solvency" like they did with PG&E exec's out here.......

 

[The Ronin]

and unless one of the unions on this property "burn the house down,"

"Do you smell something burning????"......

Relax folks....AMFA is already putting out the fires and calming the seas....they know it could have been A LOT worse and they are not about to jeopardize the contract and especially Article X. Like Kcabpilot said, the rank and file have another strategy...."I'll...I'll.....I'll STAY and show you"....hahahahaha, great stategy ROFLMAO.

 

[casual rat]

I wonder how the economy's going to perform with all the personal disposable income being lost to cost cutting. Individual's personal "fixed costs" are going to have to come down at some point methinx. I'd hate to be a loan officer. Soup Lines @ 11:00!