Bend Over Everyone

Because you need 20 years to get passes for life. I have 18 years. If I get a voluntary furlough, I can leave for 5 years, come back and decide then if I want to leave or not. But at that time, I have my passes.

I heard a rumor that they are going to pull all voluntary furloughs back and rebid the furloughs. The current voluntary furloughs include medical, this one won't. Also, this one is going to be for people with 8 years of flying or more only. We shall see. But I know I'll be the first one in line to take it.
 
Well folks,

Welcome to U's hell.

If USairways managment gets away with all they are doing..."dismantling the workforce", then every carrier in this country will do it.

I wrote on these boards 2 years ago..."Domino Effect". If one group gets slaughtered... they all die.


Destiny awaits...
 
uafa21 said:
At some point in your life you have to have a gut check. What's to say this company sticks around after these cuts. It will be something else, then something else.

Why do they want these cuts till 2010? Didn't our so-called new contracts back in 2003 say that they couldn't re-negociate again and ask for more concessions?

TILTON NEEDS TO GO. He is worthless as a UAL ceo. He doesn't understand the business. Isn't it funny how they wait till after the election to ask for these cut's. Not that it would have made any difference.
[post="198273"][/post]​


Your airline wants cuts until 2010, cause "monkey see; monkey do"..

USAiways is until 2010. And I remember way back when, the company said they only needed these concession until the ATSB is paid back, which was Jan. 2009. Nothing like stealing an extra year.

"Transformation Plan my butt....this is about gutting contracts, and busting the unions, and dismantling workforce.
 
PITbull said:
Your airline wants cuts until 2010, cause "monkey see; monkey do"..

USAiways is until 2010. And I remember way back when, the company said they only needed these concession until the ATSB is paid back, which was Jan. 2009. Nothing like stealing an extra year.

"Transformation Plan my butt....this is about gutting contracts, and busting the unions, and dismantling workforce.
[post="198562"][/post]​


PitBull,

Don't be upset because our plan is better than your plan.
Our plan has hidden cookies :p .

Of course the cookies are being supplied to a different orifice.

We call them 'bum cookies' and will be selling them to our customers as a holiday gift.............

See, we be much smarter than U n chit...........


















(Insert laugh here................>)

Take Care,
:up: UAL_TECH
 
WorldTraveler said:
Why do they need to offer a voluntary furlough? The pay cut will be enough to push some people out the door. They may offer one, but they may not.

Jungleclone,
you are right that oil prices will go up and world demand is fast outstripping supply. However, taking ever business downturn out of the hides of employees virtually ensures that the company will not survive. Just read about the service failures that are now happening at US and you have to be convinced that dissatisfied employees will drive off customers. Given that UA has long had a pretty good reputation as a service provider, it will be a very sad day if UA employees decide they no longer care about the company or their customers. I hope it doesn't come to that.
[post="198521"][/post]​

How can you care for a company who is bent on pushing the wages and benefits of organized employee groups to welfare levels?
I wonder if you same people that want dirt cheap tickets would like it if your wages and benefits were cut 50%.

The people wanting cheap airline tickets and cheap illegal labor are DESTROYING the standard of living for their fellow Americans and they don't care whatsoever.
This attitude is is becoming the prevailing attitude in U.S. society and real soon we airline employees won't have the money to buy your house,new car,new appliance,or a 100 other things,and this is going to drive down YOUR wages and benefits or worse,your employer laying YOU off.

I see the major concessions train coming full steam ahead to AA where I'm a 19 year mechanic.
If my wages and retirement is reduced too much I will walk and work somewhere else other than the airline business for 10 more years.
 
Herk,

You do understand that some people consider their employment a 'career' and not a 'hobby'.

I'm happy that you were able to create your own business, but don't you think it is slightly hypocritical to pull the '320CAPT' verbiage while you have already created a business to support yourself and your loved ones? Do you not think that the 'unwashed masses' have entrepreneurial qualities as well?

Would you expect one to respect your opinion of others as you consider being a pilot a hobby?
However I do appreciate your comments as it reflects your disdain to those that actually work for a living.

UT

UT. You make comments without full knowledge of the situation. I was furloughed. Went 6 months without a paycheck while I set up my business. Drained my savings for start up catital and now I am doing OK. If I can do it so can your "unwashed masses". Instead, you are sitting here whining about everything instead of doing something about it. (Shutting down the company doesn't count. that is the cowards wayout) At least Ronin has a back up plan.

As for being a pilot, it was once a career. United ended it without input from me. I would have preffered a pilot career, instead of working 50 or 60 hours a week and dealing with all the junk that goes along with running a business.

As for your BS comment about people that actually work for a living. You just show your ignorance. You have no idea of what I have gone through to get where I am. Pull your head out of your A$$ and realize that mechs are not the only people that work for a living. It is just a different path.
 
goingboeing,
I'm not supporting UA management. I have often been critical of UAL for not doing what they should have to keep their company alive and for doing things that seem certain to hasten its demise. The fact that UA is doing exactly what US has done where the results have been horrific at best speaks volumes about UA management's knowledge of how to run the business and of their obvious desire to wipe out all that has made UA the great company that it is today. I mourn for the failure of another great name in the industry and the people that made it become what it is.

While AA may have to ask for additional concessions, I don't buy the argument that AA or DL or anyone else will do it just because US and UA have done it. Remember that TW employees were paid well below industry averages for years. Not every airline is managed the same and it will become more apparent in the next few months and years.
 
herkav8r said:
UT. You make comments without full knowledge of the situation. I was furloughed. Went 6 months without a paycheck while I set up my business. Drained my savings for start up catital and now I am doing OK. If I can do it so can your "unwashed masses". Instead, you are sitting here whining about everything instead of doing something about it. (Shutting down the company doesn't count. that is the cowards wayout) At least Ronin has a back up plan.

As for being a pilot, it was once a career. United ended it without input from me. I would have preffered a pilot career, instead of working 50 or 60 hours a week and dealing with all the junk that goes along with running a business.

As for your BS comment about people that actually work for a living. You just show your ignorance. You have no idea of what I have gone through to get where I am. Pull your head out of your A$$ and realize that mechs are not the only people that work for a living. It is just a different path.
[post="198588"][/post]​

Herk,

Given that we have had a common goal once, I'll cut you some slack.
I am happy that you do have a business that supports you and your loved ones.
But I do not find much comfort in your inference of being a pilot as a 'hobby'.
There are many pilots here that actually work and consider their work as a career and not a hobby. ( Don't tell any pilot I said that though)

I am in no way trying to belittle your sacrifices and the tough times that you have but your caviler posts did not reflect those hardships. Not trying to bust your butt.

Instead, you are sitting here whining about everything instead of doing something about it.

Here we go again :rolleyes: your a$$umption that I do not work for a living and I do nothing about my and/or UAL's situation except #### and whine on this BB.

(Shutting down the company doesn't count. that is the cowards wayout)

Not really, the 'cowards way out' would be to continuously accept concession after concession in hopes that they might get a severance and unemployment instead of taking a stand.

Making a stand is much harder as one has to realize that there will be no severance, cobra, and or unemployment. For someone making a decision to strike in this environment, one must have nads of brass.

Take Care,
UAL_TECH
 
Borescope said:
You can't raise fares, lose customers and increase revenue. Lets say that on a $200 ticket they raise the fare $10. that makes it $210. If 50 pax travel at this higher rate the increase in revenue is $500. But if just 3 of those people balk and go to a carrier where they can get the same flight for the $200, you just lost revenue on that flight. Until the ASM's come down, the airlines aren't going to have any pricing power.
[post="198425"][/post]​
If fares increases are held long enough, rational competitors will see the added value to raising their fares as well. There will be some short-term pain, but long term relief. As for reducing ASM's, why would that have the desired effect? As long as there are Expedia's and Travelocities out there distributing the airlines inventory, prices cannot rise, regardless of the shortage of seats. There are record numbers of airline travellers out there, so demand is obviously not an issue. As is seen in the ATA/ AAI merger, there is no real net loss of ASM's so what good is consolidation.

Airlines need to take back their inventory and choke off the Expedias of the world if they ever hope to regain control over pricing. But that will take discipline, something sorely lacking in airline management to day.
 
For Mechanics this is pretty much the Alamo. There's not much left other than the line and a few C-checks. They are already set up with bloated management to just move into the line if we walk out. I know that the manager replacements don't know squat, they will suffer and they may eventually fold but they don't care about that because getting rid of us Mechanics will be so satisfying and they certainly have enough of management to fill in - why do you suppose that is?

If we shoot these concessions down - I should say when we shoot them down - They'll go to the judge. They won't abrogate the contract, they'll just get a really painful temporary wage cut - just like USAIR. This plan is all Xeroxed. If they abrogate and we walk out they will just lock us out. Our only option is to stay on the premises. Their dream is to get rid of us so don't give it to them. Stay and fight. If the contract stands and we come to work then when an aircraft comes in ground the sucker. They need our signature to fly and we can find all sorts of stuff wrong with these old airplanes.

After all - our prime concern is the safety of the flying public. Don't let the beancounters endanger our travelling grandmas.
 
"Some quick number crunching for Mechanics (using round figures)

They want 100 million per year from AMFA
There are 6,000 AMFA members
That is $16,666 each - per year
which equates to about a 27% pay cut (??????????????????)
and that doesn't include the pension grab

They want 191 million per year from ALPA
There are 7,000 ALPA members
That is $27285 each - per year
which equates to about a 13% pay cut (?????????????????)
(and that doesn't include the pension grab either, with ALPA members losing MUCH MUCH more than ANY other group on the property-you forgot to mention that)

TECH, if you are even IMPLYING that somehow AMFA is giving up more than ALPA (or ANY other group for that matter), I suggest you had better check your "quick number crunching" again. I posted that FACT before, but as usual you resort to your pilot bashing propaganda. Every ALPA member on the property would gladly exchange the combination of this cut and the last paycut with any other union on the property.
 
kcabpilot said:
For Mechanics this is pretty much the Alamo. There's not much left other than the line and a few C-checks. They are already set up with bloated management to just move into the line if we walk out. I know that the manager replacements don't know squat, they will suffer and they may eventually fold but they don't care about that because getting rid of us Mechanics will be so satisfying and they certainly have enough of management to fill in - why do you suppose that is?

If we shoot these concessions down - I should say when we shoot them down - They'll go to the judge. They won't abrogate the contract, they'll just get a really painful temporary wage cut - just like USAIR. This plan is all Xeroxed. If they abrogate and we walk out they will just lock us out. Our only option is to stay on the premises. Their dream is to get rid of us so don't give it to them. Stay and fight. If the contract stands and we come to work then when an aircraft comes in ground the sucker. They need our signature to fly and we can find all sorts of stuff wrong with these old airplanes.

After all - our prime concern is the safety of the flying public. Don't let the beancounters endanger our travelling grandmas.
[post="198643"][/post]​
Now THAT"S sound logic....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH.....There is 1 and only 1 card that any of the groups can play....and everybody here is too old to play it....it could lead to drastic change and maybe even hard work....something in short supply at the lazy U....No, there will be no abrogation. Each group will just mull along until the next....and the next....and the next..... :lol:
 
JungleClone:

Below is why we are in the oil crisis we are in. There is a shortage of "sweet crude" oil and there is an oversupply of "hard crude". The refiners are not set up to refine "hard crude". Jet fuel is made from "sweet crude". If the refiners would figure out how and begin processing "hard crude", oil prices would really fall.

see below from www.futurebuzz.com

Crude

Ticker: CL
Exchange: NYMEX
Trading Hours: 10:00 A.M. - 2:30 P.M. (EST)
Contract Size: 1,000 U.S. barrels (42,000 gallons)
Contract Months: All Months
Price Quote: $0.01 (1¢) per barrel ($10.00 per contract).
Tick Size: 1 pt. = $10
Last Trading Day: Trading terminates at the close of business on the third business day prior to the 25th calendar day of the month preceding the delivery month. If the 25th calendar day of the month is a non-business day, trading shall cease on the third business day prior to the last business day preceding the 25th calendar day.
Daily Price Limit: $10.00 per barrel ($10,000 per contract) for all months.


40 Yr Seasonal Chart Long-Term Chart Supply & Demand Tables



Fundamental Overview:

Crude oil is the world's most actively traded commodity, and the NYMEX Division light, sweet crude oil futures contract is the world's most liquid forum for crude oil trading, as well as the world's largest-volume futures contract trading on a physical commodity. Because of its excellent liquidity and price transparency, the contract is used as a principal international pricing benchmark. Additional risk management and trading opportunities are offered through options on the futures contract; calendar spread options; crack spread options on the pricing differential of heating oil futures and crude oil futures and gasoline futures and crude oil futures; and average price options.

The contract trades in units of 1,000 barrels, and the delivery point is Cushing, Oklahoma, which is also accessible to the international spot markets via pipelines. The contract provides for delivery of several grades of domestic and internationally traded foreign crudes, and serves the diverse needs of the physical market.

Light, sweet crudes are preferred by refiners because of their low sulfur content and relatively high yields of high-value products such as gasoline, diesel fuel, heating oil, and jet fuel.

The e-miNYsm crude oil futures contract, designed for investment portfolios, is the equivalent of 500 barrels of crude, 50% of the size of a standard futures contract. The contract is available for trading on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange (CME) GLOBEX® electronic trading platform and clears through the New York Mercantile Exchange clearinghouse.

The Exchange also lists for trading electronically a financially settled futures contract for Dubai crude oil; a futures contract on the differential between the light, sweet crude oil futures contract and Canadian Bow River crude at Hardisty, Alberta; and futures contracts on the differentials of the light, sweet crude oil futures contract and four domestic grades of crude oil: Light Louisiana Sweet, West Texas Intermediate-Midland, West Texas Sour, and Mars Blend.

The Brent blend futures contract is based on a light, sweet North Sea crude oil that serves as a benchmark grade and widely trades as a differential to the NYMEX Division's bellwether light, sweet crude oil futures contract. Most of the crude oil is refined in Northwest Europe, but significant volumes move to the U.S. Gulf and East Coasts. Complementing the Brent crude oil futures contract are an options contract, calendar spread options contracts, and an options contract on the Brent/West Texas Intermediate crude oil spread.

Key Trading Notes:
Reports - Watch the DOE Weekly Supply numbers.

OPEC still is able to move the market, however, not as radically as it once had. Venezuela tends to produce a little more than OPEC would like. Russia has a vast amount of oil in the ground and they are becoming a bigger and bigger player.

The Mideast always seems to account for a premium in the price of oil. It would be difficult to imagine stability in the area for a long time.

Demand for oil tends to be the highest in summer and winter. The summer is mainly affected by increased driving on vacations, etc. This is mainly in the form demand for gasoline, a by-product of crude. Also, the hotter the summer, the more demand there is on energy for air conditioning. Demand during the winter comes largely for heating oil. Normally, the colder the winter, the more demand for heating oil.
 
novagt,
alot of the shortfall in sweet crude is due to the disruptions in Gulf of Mexico production after Hurricane Ivan. The WSJ had a very good article about the Gulf following Ivan but I believe the article is now in archives and must be accessed at a premium. That Gulf capacity will come back online but it will take many months - perhaps into the spring - before supply returns to normal levels. Until then, prices will likely stay up. And who knows what disruption will happen then or what the next plague to strike the airline industry will be.