Feeling Of Entitlement

[KCFlyer]

Bottom Line KC is this. In Survey after Survey regardless of your feelings or mine, IF ALL other things are equal it's the FF program that becomes the differentiator for the VFF.

Being alble to influence core customers with a program that is a money maker stand alone (As you pointed out FF programs take in more money than their dead cost) is a pretty sweet deal for the airline.

US sold under 1,000 F/C tickets to LAS the entire year of '03 so there is no down side to filling those seats with it's most loyal customers. Especially if it incents them to buy another ticket or 40 over the next calender year.

Your logic is similar to the failed logic used by BBB and Leo Mullins which cost their respective employers MILLIONS in lost FF revenue. Why do you think the lions share of the perks were restored?

[post="256834"][/post]​

No, if FF programs went away, how many VFF's would quit travelling? YOu know, if it weren't for the FF programs, perhaps airlines would focus on SERVICE to differentiate themselves.

And...let's say that fare restructuring is on the way and they adopt a policy like Airtrans...very decent coach fare and a greatly reduced "business class" fare. I'd venture to guess that they'd sell fare more than 1,000 seats to LAS the first year they tried that. The seats were empty last year because US didn't really have LCC comptetion between PHL and LAS. Not only were the coach seats expensive, FC seats were exhorbitant. But if those fares came down, imagine the revenue they would generate.

As far as Delta...the perks were restored because nobody in the airline industry has the cajones to stick with something. Yep, there was an outcry by the FF members when Delta did it. Had they kept at it, those folks who enjoyed nonstop flights on Delta might have found that it just wasn't worth changing planes in Newark or Cleveland whenever they had to travel...and they would have returned. But...while Delta is indeed in financial straits, how much income has the DM program generated for US? Apparently those VFF's aren't getting the job done...no matter how loyal.

 

[Oliver Twist]

Makes you wonder why people apply for a union job knowing what the union rules are, and then whine about it.

[Just like the guy that moves next to an airport and complains about the noise].

[post="255778"][/post]​

As for me, I did not apply for a union job 22 years ago; there was no CWA back then and no F/S IAM. It was a job, period. There were seniority rules which I knew of and could live with - back then. However as the company went south and the unions came in, the seniority issue only got worse.

I was facing the fact that I would NEVER get weekends off or holiday weeks off my entire career (after what would have been 40 years of service). In those early days of expansion and a constant stream of new employees, it was easy to see that some day soon I would get my reward - Days, weekends off, Holiday off.

Just about the time I should have begun to enjoy some of those seniority rewards, US started into the tank (early 90's). Those new hires suddenly began to disappear and it was then that I realized that the ones senior to me just happened to be younger than me. They were hired in late 70's and early 80's. My 1983 date was fading from the top of an ever-shorter list. I went from top 1/3 to bottom 1/3 and still faced with bidding vacations a year in advance, working nights, weekends and every holiday.

It was not a pretty picture to realize that, had I stayed, at age 65 I would still be junior to more agents than were allowed to take off the holiday weeks and have weekends off and day shifts. At age 65, with 37 years of seniority, still working holidays and nights or days with mid weekdays off. Oh my, such an exciting prospect.

I began to look elsewhere for what my wife calls a "real job". I now work in an environment where people listen to ideas you have and use them. Getting a day off or week off without having to sign up for it the previous year or Christmas day off is a breeze without the need to "pull seniority". What a refreshing idea!

Seniority at U is now a sentence from a judge. It means the ones who remain and have had the "good" shifts, etc will keep them and the poor souls at the bottom will stay the rest of their lives on crappy shifts, vacation weeks, etc unless they choose to move on like I did.

Even with all the senior folks putting in for EO's, the system will just create the same problem down the road for a whole new crop of folks. I don't have an answer for this issue in regards to US, however the answer for me was to move on and it was the right answer. It is a flawed system that rewards a select few for their entire careers on the backs of everyone else. I kiss the paper every day I open the business section to see what's happening with my former company's fortunes.

For me, Seniority is a price I was no longer willing to pay.

As for the "noise" issue, that one I agree with. If the airport was there first, get over it! Unions and the slow death of living under my ever sinking senority were not there before I was.


Good luck to all who choose to stay.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

Now lets say XYZ company comes in and makes the same or interchangable widget as a startup operation.

[post="256786"][/post]​

Again it's management messup for not getting a patent. 😛h34r:

 

[JS]

If FF programs were to be abolished tomorrow, I don't think we'd see a mass exodous of road warriors retiring, nor do I think companies would have trouble filling good paying jobs that required travel.  FF programs served their purpose.  They are NOT profit centers...what they have succeeded in doing is getting a bunch of "preferreds" paying $256 and exercising their "right" to a free upgrade to first.  If a fare loses money by the "once a year traveller" occupying a coach seat, how in the world do they make a profit from a "preferred" passenger flying on the same fare and sitting in a first class seat?  Why do Hertz, Avis, Marriott, or anybody else need to "reward" their customers with anything more than good service?  The costs to maintain the programs might be less than what they make "selling" miles to "partners".  But when you factor in the loss of revenue by giving away free seats, and the costs associated with operating the airport clubs, then the "profit" is far slimmer than those "preferred" folks might care to believe.

[post="256803"][/post]​

FF programs being abolished is as likely as a 50% fare hike -- it won't happen in a competitive environment. On the other hand, if the airlines all got together and agreed to abolish them ... hello, anti-trust.

The seats given away for free or as upgrades are subject to limited availability. Yield management minimizes revenue leakage on those seats.

If you were truly against FF programs, Southwest would be your least favorite airline. They have no capacity controls, and they blantantly tolerate the sale of Rapid Rewards award tickets! That is some serious revenue leakage.

Overall, Southwest still makes money, so the overall effect of a frequent flyer program must have much less of an influence than do wages, benefits, work rules, employee productivity, aircraft utilization, and fuel.

No, if FF programs went away, how many VFF's would quit travelling?  YOu know, if it weren't for the FF programs, perhaps airlines would focus on SERVICE to differentiate themselves. 

And...let's say that fare restructuring is on the way and they adopt a policy like Airtrans...very decent coach fare and a greatly reduced "business class" fare.  I'd venture to guess that they'd sell fare more than 1,000 seats to LAS the first year they tried that.  The seats were empty last year because US didn't really have LCC comptetion between PHL and LAS.  Not only were the coach seats expensive, FC seats were exhorbitant.  But if those fares came down, imagine the revenue they would generate. 

As far as Delta...the perks were restored because nobody in the airline industry has the cajones to stick with something.  Yep, there was an outcry by the FF members when Delta did it.  Had they kept at it, those folks who enjoyed nonstop flights on Delta might have found that it just wasn't worth changing planes in Newark or Cleveland whenever they had to travel...and they would have returned.  But...while Delta is indeed in financial straits, how much income has the DM program generated for US?  Apparently those VFF's aren't getting the job done...no matter how loyal.

[post="256839"][/post]​

Delta recently decided to "get it over with" and pretend that AirTran operates in every single domestic market, with coach fares capped at $499 one way and First Class $599, rather than following them around, city pair by city pair.

Delta as well as US (actually, all the majors as far as I know) have been selling discounted First Class seats in many markets for some time now, mostly the AirTran markets such as ATL-LAS.

Even in these markets, I have rarely missed getting an upgrade because of the First Class sales. The reason is that the First Class capacity is much larger than is the market for them. From what I have read, AirTran also upgrades their elite members to F (business class, whatever) when the seats are unsold.

In the domestic market, there just isn't that much demand for First Class tickets, even for 50 bucks over coach. Because it's useless to install just two First Class seats on a 737 size aircraft, most of the seats go unsold, so the airlines sell what they can and give the rest away as part of the frequent flyer marketing program.

Southwest is really not any different in this respect. Fly 100 credits in a year, and you get a companion pass, allowing you to take along one designated companion with you for free for one year, even on a Rapid Rewards ticket.

 

[PHL]

KC - maybe you're a business/frequent traveller, but it doesn't seem like you are based on your comments here, so I don't know how you are coming to these conclusions that FF programs are bad for the industry.

Sure - you're right - if all airlines dropped their FF programs, people would still have to fly for whatever reason. No arguement there. But, there's no rational reason for that to happen in a competitive, capitalistic enviornment. It's called competitive advantage. Offering your loyal customers a carrot. It doesn't have to be an airline. Other businesses do it too. Should the supermarkets of the world stop giving people "memberships" so they get the automatic coupon savings at the register? Should all hotels just offer one room type? Should everyone be eating vanilla ice cream instead of chocolate?

But, as it's been shown time and again - the FF program is a key ingredient in retaining repeat business. Do you *REALLY* think it COSTS an airline more to operate the program than it brings in revenues? Those seats are going out empty anyway (which is a concept I think you've fully grasped in this thread).

Even in the PHL-LAS market, which you use as an example, where US dropped the F fare to a more reasonable $499 each way, the bookings there did improve and a lot of people sitting up front are now paying customers. So, those FF's you seem to despise sit in coach and accept it. Plus, SW nonstop PHL-LAS flights are sorely limited. US still has the frequency advantage in that market.

 

[KCFlyer]

The reason is that the First Class capacity is much larger than is the market for them.

[post="256885"][/post]​

Don't you find it rather odd that when "capacity" is much larger than the market, the airlines tend to pull the flights? Following your logic, they would just keep the flights and make the seats available to the FF members who want to take a free trip. If capacity` for F class seats is much larger than the market for them, it would behoove the airlines to reduce/eliminate that capacity. Perhaps like Delta did with their "shuttle" aircraft - all coach and a LOT of legroom for everybody, while still carrying about the same number of folks as they do on the "other" aircraft. The predicament of the "legacy" carriers is that the travelling public is demanding lower fares...even the Piney's of the world. At the same time, they are demanding things like "true F/C service! Linen, Glass, Hot food, Ice Cream cart & all of that.". And they can't afford to give the travelling public...no matter how "preferred" they might be, both.

Southwest tops their one way fares at $300. And the VFF's, while they appear to loathe Southwest, will point to Southwest and tell their "carrier of choice" that they want to pay no more than SWA. The reason for this is because, while they pontificate on how THEY, the VFF deserve all these perks from an airline, lest they take their business elsewhere, in reality their company who buys the ticket is telling them "Southwest is $300, US is $600 - you're flying Southwest". And they can't have that. So...the prices must drop to a level where US can compete with SWA. This makes the VFF's very happy - they no longer have to fly the "turd brown bus", and despite the fact that when their highest competitive fare barely makes them a profit, according to Bob, these VFF's seem to have the luxury of purchasing seats 14 days in advance....and they are now LOSING the company money, yet still demanding
"true F/C service! Linen, Glass, Hot food, Ice Cream cart & all of that." When the airlines try to compromise by tweaking the VFF benefits, the cockroach club is formed.

 

[KCFlyer]

But, as it's been shown time and again - the FF program is a key ingredient in retaining repeat business.

[post="256943"][/post]​

Actually, the two key ingredients for retaining repeat business that rank ahead of FF programs is price, and convenience of schedule. Maybe not for the few folks who pay their own way...but for corporations who are looking to cut every cost they can, the driving force of the airline that is chosen boils down to "Who is the lowest price with the most convenient scheduling of MY EMPLOYEE's time". If the equation points to Delta, then the EMPLOYEE flies Delta, regardless of how many miles he's got in his DM account.

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

Now I am confused Piney led me to believe that service was number 1. Now there are 3 things ahead of that?

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

One of the reasons US Airways has met with us is to determine exactly what it is the VFF really wants. The answer to that is diverse

For me the bigger seat, the snack tray, CP desk and a free cocktail is just fine. Others want a meal which for the life of me I can't figure out why. Bad food for free is still bad food. Good food like in Envoy I would cheerfully pay for. I get a meal allowance and I can expense it so who cares where I eat?

[post="256961"][/post]​

Do you think they have done anything different as a direct result of only you and your group? How many does your group represent? More then the handout surveys USAirways has handed out and have had returned?

Why is bigger seat valuable to you? Bigger person? Why you willing to pay more? Your company paying? Others want meal? Maybe they have their own reason?

Why can't you understand neither the world or the airline industry revolve around you? Everyone has tastes. Everyone has opinions. Everyone has priorties. Why question why? Why call things names? You are like a kid that throws a fit on ground kicking your legs and flinging your arms. Why do you call Southwest names and appear to look down on anyone that chooses their service over a legacy? Just because they have different tastes as you doesn't make them wrong.

 

[JS]

Don't you find it rather odd that when "capacity" is much larger than the market, the airlines tend to pull the flights? Following your logic, they would just keep the flights and make the seats available to the FF members who want to take a free trip. If capacity` for F class seats is much larger than the market for them, it would behoove the airlines to reduce/eliminate that capacity. Perhaps like Delta did with their "shuttle" aircraft - all coach and a LOT of legroom for everybody, while still carrying about the same number of folks as they do on the "other" aircraft. The predicament of the "legacy" carriers is that the travelling public is demanding lower fares...even the Piney's of the world. At the same time, they are demanding things like "true F/C service! Linen, Glass, Hot food, Ice Cream cart & all of that.". And they can't afford to give the travelling public...no matter how "preferred" they might be, both.

Like you said, Delta has an all-coach 737-800. They used operate on the Shuttle but now appear elsewhere in the system. I wouldn't point to that as a good example, though, because the same city pair can have both F/Y and all-Y Shuttle aircraft. Delta wanted to use the Shuttle aircraft on other routes when they're not needed on the DCA-LGA-BOS Shuttle, and rather than re-configure them to F/Y, they just left them as all coach.

However, Delta does have the Song product, and UA has the TED product. While there is a chance that this is a wave of the future, personally I think they will be limited to competing with JetBlue's all-coach more-legroom product.

In most non-JetBlue markets (those that haven't been downgraded to RJ status), the extra space used by having an F cabin, IMHO, isn't worth converting them to all-Y. So, I don't think domestic F is completely going away anytime soon -- certainly not for "prime" routes connecting with international flights, such as IAD-DEN or LAX-ORD.

Southwest tops their one way fares at $300. And the VFF's, while they appear to loathe Southwest, will point to Southwest and tell their "carrier of choice" that they want to pay no more than SWA. The reason for this is because, while they pontificate on how THEY, the VFF deserve all these perks from an airline, lest they take their business elsewhere, in reality their company who buys the ticket is telling them "Southwest is $300, US is $600 - you're flying Southwest". And they can't have that. So...the prices must drop to a level where US can compete with SWA. This makes the VFF's very happy - they no longer have to fly the "turd brown bus", and despite the fact that when their highest competitive fare barely makes them a profit, according to Bob, these VFF's seem to have the luxury of purchasing seats 14 days in advance....and they are now LOSING the company money, yet still demanding
"true F/C service! Linen, Glass, Hot food, Ice Cream cart & all of that." When the airlines try to compromise by tweaking the VFF benefits, the cockroach club is formed.

[post="256946"][/post]​

Well, it's not as bad as you make it out to be -- all the legacy airlines as far as I know advance people further up the elite ladder according to fare paid, and they all award upgrades based on that order. On Delta, if someone flies ATL-BWI on cheap fares, it will take a lot of flights to get upgraded. But if someone flies ATL-NRT or ATL-SEA on high fares, it won't take long at all to reach the top of the upgrade list.

Looking at just one fare at a time (e.g., free upgrade on a $300 fare) is missing the forest for the trees.

 

[KCFlyer]

It's called enlightened self interest. Next time try not to put words in my mouth. The "True First Class Service" Comment was in regard to paying between $150 to $200 dollars more to upgrade to First Class.

As I recall, that was if the trip was on your dime. If it was on your companies dime, then you expected to be comped the upgrade. Why is this the airlines responsiblity, especially, as you have cited, your company is booking you on 14 day advance loss leader fares?

 

[KCFlyer]

WRONG Buckwheat!

I fly almost exclusively on US Airways because my manager and I have an agreement. I will go anyplace anytime to do a class at a moments notice. He overlooks the fares because he knows I'll make it up someplace down the line by using a GoFare. We look at the TOTAL expense year to date NOT individual fares. With proper planning of my work I fly more segments, earn more miles and have a cost to do all of that that is significantly lower than about half the department.

[post="256966"][/post]​

Now... I understand why the tweaks to the DM program resulted in the formation of the cockroach club. US reduced the miles awarded to "preferred" status based on the fare paid. Pay a loss leader fare...get fewer credits to "preferred" status. Pay a profitable price for the seat, get full credit to preferred status. But...you illustrate the problem with these programs....savvy travellers like yourself are frequently putting a butt in a seat at a loss leading fare. And you expect the airline to reward you for the privledge of having your butt warm that seat. Not only that, you expect the airline to upgrade your money losing fare so that your butt can warm a bigger seat in first. US had the right idea with their changes. The fact that so many apparently revolted at the announcement only goes to show that they want a Caddy at a Chevy price. So that begs the question...why should a passenger who flies 6 segments a week at a loss leader fare be treated on the same level as another person who flies to 2 segments at a considerably higher fare?

 

[KCFlyer]

WRONG Buckwheat!

I fly almost exclusively on US Airways because my manager and I have an agreement. I will go anyplace anytime to do a class at a moments notice.

[post="256966"][/post]​

Are your clients billed for the travel expenses? If they are, then I'd love to hire your company to a very lucrative contract for them, and tell them to to send the "best man they have" to work with me tomorrow. You are the "best man they have". I'll pick up the airfare...it's on Southwest. Does a lucrative contract outweigh flying on the "turd brown bus", or will I be seeing your company's second best man at the airport in the morning?

 

[usairways_vote_NO]

You know what I really like? This topic going from a topic about employees and their Feeling Of Entitlement to the customers and their Feeling Of Entitlement.

What a hoot!!!

 

[JS]

Now... I understand why the tweaks to the DM program resulted in the formation of the cockroach club. US reduced the miles awarded to "preferred" status based on the fare paid. Pay a loss leader fare...get fewer credits to "preferred" status. Pay a profitable price for the seat, get full credit to preferred status. But...you illustrate the problem with these programs....savvy travellers like yourself are frequently putting a butt in a seat at a loss leading fare. And you expect the airline to reward you for the privledge of having your butt warm that seat. Not only that, you expect the airline to upgrade your money losing fare so that your butt can warm a bigger seat in first. US had the right idea with their changes. The fact that so many apparently revolted at the announcement only goes to show that they want a Caddy at a Chevy price. So that begs the question...why should a passenger who flies 6 segments a week at a loss leader fare be treated on the same level as another person who flies to 2 segments at a considerably higher fare?

[post="256979"][/post]​

I'm not absolutely positive of this, but I believe that is what US does. I know AA, DL and UA include booking class as part of the formula used to determine elite status.

Once again, Southwest is "behind the times", awarding credits based solely on flying one trip (one for one way, two for round trip, and that's it). No extra credit for buying a full fare. Why?