Feeling Of Entitlement

[calibrator]

Make way for the butt kissers.

Seniority rules, it is the only fair and true system.

[post="255764"][/post]​

I can agree on the butt kissers, trouble is, the only system that you consider fair is a short sighted myopic vision instilled into your thinking by a powerfully convincing system aimed at taking your money, with your blessings no less. Look at the down side to be fair. Seniority also promotes incompetence and hands out false qualifications in the name of seniority. "ONE EXAMPLE" When I started at U 15 years ago I was already a qualified machinist for 20 years. I had some guy who was NOT a machinist check my work and do what was called a RED-X which means the work was “supposedlyâ€￾ scrap. This happened on my 90 day probation, so a fellow "brother" was helping me out the door making me look bad. As it turned out: I requested the foremen inspector who was a "true" machinist in his own right and asked him to inspect it, the item in question was done perfectly and the only flaw was in a system that allowed someone with seniority but not the proper skills to overlook someone who truly had the skills but lacked seniority, "seniority rules". That is just one very true example of the seniority system. Granted, non union work places do indeed have the butt kissers and other undesirables, but with seniority the undesirables are protected, are actually untouchable with seniority. This was the case at U, but I am convinced that since they fired Shelia after almost 15 years of her total ineptitude, seniority no longer matters at U as they have defeated the once mighty seniority system and all its injustices, and what the shame of it is, is they did it with the blessings of a defeated membership who only saw one word, “severance“. With this the latest and once mighty union basically falling on its face, this is a big feather in Jerry's hat and yet another hard kick in the unions collective a-z-z in this country where unions are becoming fewer and fewer and weaker and weaker while Corporate America becomes richer and richer and the working class becomes weaker, having to work three jobs to survive. No backbone in the union memberships anymore and the Jerrys are taking full advantage of this fact. With the unions going away, so is the middle class, and they are doing it willingly, like this latest vote for "severance". Everyone for himself while corporate America helps themselves to the slaughter of the once mighty unions. Looks like the butt kissers will take over where the unions failed.

 

[insp89]

Unbelievable, "fair and true". Give me a break. There is nothing inherently fair or true about seniority, the poster is correct, it protects the weak, and is one of the BIG reason Usairways has not been successful.

[post="256495"][/post]​

Last time I checked, Everyone's favorite airline {Southwest} uses the same seniority system as good ole Usairways...is this why Southwest is in the shape it's in today ? Unbelievable.

 

[4merresrat]

Last time I checked, Everyone's favorite airline {Southwest} uses the same seniority system as good ole Usairways...is this why Southwest is in the shape it's in today ? Unbelievable.

[post="256741"][/post]​

Weak agrument, Southwest is still a relatively young company. Eventually, they too will have to deal with dinasaurs. However, if you recall, last winter they offered a huge buyout for customer service-with lots of takers. That may make a difference.

 

[insp89]

Weak agrument, Southwest is still a relatively young company. Eventually, they too will have to deal with dinasaurs. However, if you recall, last winter they offered a huge buyout for customer service-with lots of takers. That may make a difference.

[post="256745"][/post]​

I guess it would be a weak argument to a employee that is coming up a little short on the seniority list..

Please describe dinosaur. Be careful how you answer, Even You will get there someday.

 

[diogenes]

Au contraire, great argument.

Suppose WN station XXX and U station YYY have the exact same staffing needs - 50 agents.

Assume all the WN'ers have less than 10 years seniority; assume the US'ers all exceed 20 years - a realistic guess.

You will have 50 agents slotted into positions by their relative seniority at XXX and YYY.

I have been on both ends of this equation, In the early days at PI, there were 50 of us in a station, all with less than 5 years. The top guy got SS day shift, the bottom guy got TW nights.

And have been where the junior guy had 20 years. The top guy got SS days, the bottom guy got TW nights. Same same.

 

[insp89]

So the variables are

1- Ratio of Top of Scale versus mid entry level employees.

2 - Managements Ability to inspire and motivate to maintain productivity
Seems like SWA would come out ahead on both.

[post="256758"][/post]​

Please further explain,

Usairways does not have "mid level" employees anymore. [Laid off]

Usairways management has the same opportunity as Southwest's
management to "inspire and "motivate".

Seems there are no variables on this issue between the 2 airlines.

Unless you want to address the different management styles.

 

[4merresrat]

I guess it would be a weak argument to a employee that is coming up a little short on the seniority list..

Please describe dinosaur. Be careful how you answer, Even You will get there someday.

[post="256750"][/post]​

Dinosaur: an extinct reptile like animal that spends most of their time on land 🙄

 

[insp89]

Dinosaur: an extinct reptile like animal that spends most of their time on land 🙄

[post="256766"][/post]​

You're getting closer every day...Have patience hatchling, it will all come together for you, someday. 😀

 

[insp89]

You explained it rather well actually. US as you point out has now entry or mid level employees left. That gives them a higher labor cost over a company that has a mix such as SWA.

Management styles IS the variable I was referring to.

[post="256776"][/post]​

Please help me understand Bob, I was under the impression the employees [ that are left ] at Usairways make considerably Less than their peers at Southwest..

And considering all the work that is now being outsourced at Usairways, plus all the layoffs and early retirements at U, I do not think the "labor cost" issue holds water anymore.

 

[aafsc]

Well they do now. Partly to offset the hub & spoke cost differential and the ratio of TOP employees. IMO the labor cost piece can't be racheted down any further so the additional cost savings will have to come from efficient operation of the system.

To answer the labor cost issue question. Short answer = NO! Longer Answer is that management has IMO wrung the last dime out of labor so the ball is in their court to save the enterprise. We will see if they have the operational expertise to pull the airline out of the fire. You have to hand them one thing and that is they are masters at finding millions where none exist.

[post="256783"][/post]​

Your last sentence is so correct. They can save millions more by cutting amenities that they give to frequent flyers. They can also devalue the frequent flyer miles.

 

[N628AU]

Make way for the butt kissers.

Seniority rules, it is the only fair and true system.

[post="255764"][/post]​

News flash, but there are many more merit based companies than there are purely seniority based industries. Is there some level of abuse there? Yes, but one can argue not to the extent of one where people are compensated strictly upon seniority. The amount of talent seniority based companies lose is much more punishing to them than the relatively small levels of butt kissing and nepotism that promote advancement on occasion in a merit based system. Then you add when there are reductions in force, you raise the overall age of your workforce. This increases average salary, increases healthcare costs, and decreases productivity.

Which brings us to the true issue that many legacy carriers have. Any industry, which like the airline biz, is highly labor intensive, will inevitably become a failing enterprise over time without significant bumps in productivity. The reason for this is that you have a labor force, which naturally, will want salary increases, whether they be merit based or COLA based. Without an associated productivity increase, you pay more for the same work. Take a flight crew. They can only fly so many hours in given month. Once they reach the limit, whether limited by regulation or CBA, over time, it costs the company more and more to produce the same unit of output.

To put it another way, lets assume I work on a factory line for ABC company. I produce 10 widgets per shift. I am paid $10 an hour to crank out those widgets, costing the company $80 a day, or $8 per widget. Let's say after 2 years, my salary is up to $12 an hour. I can still only produce 10 widgets a day, but it now costs the company $96 a day, or $9.60 a widget to pay me (not including associated increases in benefits costs like increased vacation or benefit costs to the company). Now lets say XYZ company comes in and makes the same or interchangable widget as a startup operation. Their people can only produce 10 widgets a day also, but their new hires get $8 an hour to start. It costs them $64 dollars a day or $6.40 a widget to make. Without ABC's employees becoming more productive and able to produce more than 10 widgets an hour, they will price themselves out of the market. So will XYZ at some point down the line.

Without significant advances in technology to allow more productivity, the airline business will always see older carriers fail and be replaced by younger upstarts.

 

[usacrew3]

Thank you, finally somebody got it!!

 

[KCFlyer]

Sorry NO SALE! You show your complete lack of knowledge as to how DM works and why it hasn't been cut. FF programs are PROFIT centers. BoA, Avis, Hertz, etc have to BUY miles from US to reward their customers. In fact FF Loyalty programs have been the only profitable areas for some legacy carriers.

[post="256792"][/post]​

If FF programs were to be abolished tomorrow, I don't think we'd see a mass exodous of road warriors retiring, nor do I think companies would have trouble filling good paying jobs that required travel. FF programs served their purpose. They are NOT profit centers...what they have succeeded in doing is getting a bunch of "preferreds" paying $256 and exercising their "right" to a free upgrade to first. If a fare loses money by the "once a year traveller" occupying a coach seat, how in the world do they make a profit from a "preferred" passenger flying on the same fare and sitting in a first class seat? Why do Hertz, Avis, Marriott, or anybody else need to "reward" their customers with anything more than good service? The costs to maintain the programs might be less than what they make "selling" miles to "partners". But when you factor in the loss of revenue by giving away free seats, and the costs associated with operating the airport clubs, then the "profit" is far slimmer than those "preferred" folks might care to believe.

 

[USAirUnited]

OK then explain to me why Air Canada was able to do a deal worth 168 Million CDN? Companies generally don't buy losing enterprises. Look at the World Com BK papers.

How do you lose money on a seat that would go empty in the first place? That means that SWA should jettison their Rapid Rewards plan as well. Upgrade seats are awarded based on availability as are awards tickets. So that seat would be EMPTY as in no one paying for it! God that's dumb. If you use the ratio of empty seats or load factor then SWA would be the biggest loser of them all as their load factors are in the 65% range compared to US Airways higher LF of 71%.

If there wasn't a value in FF Programs for the airlines then why do Marriott and others have SWA as partners?

[post="256822"][/post]​

SWA from what I understand does not exclude people who wish to redeem their miles with capacity controls. The problem with FF miles is oversaturation. You can even get miles if you use your BOA Visa card to buy your coffee and cigs everyday.

 

[KCFlyer]

<< OK then explain to me why Air Canada was able to do a deal worth 168 Million CDN? Companies generally don't buy losing enterprises. Look at the World Com BK papers.>>

UAL almost bought US...Delta bought Pan Am. They generally don't, but they sometimes do.

<<How do you lose money on a seat that would go empty in the first place? That means that SWA should jettison their Rapid Rewards plan as well. Upgrade seats are awarded based on availability as are awards tickets. So that seat would be EMPTY as in no one paying for it! God that's dumb. If you use the ratio of empty seats or load factor then SWA would be the biggest loser of them all as their load factors are in the 65% range compared to US Airways higher LF of 71%.>>

Southwest's load factors are lower because they offer higher frequency of flights. It's easier to fill two planes between Dallas and Houston or LA and Oakland than it is to fill 20. But...and this is important...Southwest is making a profit with a 65% load factor, while it's quite possible that with the fares and programs US has to support, they would still not make a profit with a 95% load factor. You mention empty seats...have you ever noticed how demand between city pairs increases when Southwest enters a market? Why, I believe I've read of some phenomenal increases in traffic between PHL and PVD when SWA started serving that market. And you know what an increase in traffic demand translates into? Fewer empty seats. And for longer flights...say PHL-LAS, where US is competing with SWA also...the planes are most likely going out fuller. Can you guarantee that nobody will want to buy that first class seat you just got for nothing? Wouldn't it be better for the airline to reward the passenger who paid $1,000 for his coach seat with an upgrade to first class so that another passenger can be accomodated in his coach seat than it is to give the person paying $300 an upgrade to first, turning away a paying passenger?

<< If there wasn't a value in FF Programs for the airlines then why do Marriott and others have SWA as partners? >>

I guess it's sort of like asking a mountaineer why he climbs mountains...because it's there.