Fleet Service apathy

[ograc]

My guess is the final offer will pass, not by much, because the devil you know is slightly better than the devil you don't know.

CMH_GSE,

We on the US side have been there twice. Certainly know what you're going through. It's like negotiations with a gun to your head. What these corporations can get away with under bankruptcy protection laws IMO... is criminal. They come out making a profit while we suffer concessions and job loss. We can sympathize with the situation the members at AA are in.

ograc

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim
I figured you would ignore my question!! So I'm going to come on here and repost this from time to time, just to let the membership see how you avoid questions that show the membership how you don't want to tell them the whole truth. So to everyone reading this!! This is the 2nd time I am asking Tim to tell the membership who all won nomination in phl and clt, because he posted that the hubs decided not to support the ND ticket. That's completely false, but let's see if he admits he wasn't telling the membership the whole truth!! If this guy is already proving by his post that he can't be trusted, why does anyone think he can be if he gets even more power!!! Again!! Wake up people!! Or your going to get exactly what your asking for!!

Sorry, I don't stay on this page all day and I missed your original question. Nonetheless, not sure what you were referring to since I believe I was talking to PJ and I said that I got the unanimous Hub endorsement from the US AIRWAYS hubs. I did.

Please quote me on what you are talking about and reference it. Quote my words, not yours if you are referencing me.

Onward!

 

[roabilly]

My gut tells me there will be considerable pissing and moaning, but they will take the "Final Offer".If the AA term sheet gets imposed by a judge the junior F/T'er at LGA would have mid '92 seniority.Some of those folks have been hiding in the bagroom for the better part of a decade, can't see them slinging MIA bags on a 75 or doing the DFW nasty in an '80.

As far as a potential change of representation goes, I don't know honestly.There are plenty of people PO'ed with the TWU and their "Meh" attitude in Fleet Service these past ten years.The angst of the MX group with regard to the TWU is well documented on the AA board.

Would they support a campaign though? That would require a lot of boots on the ground and a credible believable message.DFW holds the keys as always.NY would be a coin flip due to the high concentration of TWA guys in the three area airports.They'd vote for the IAM in the belief they'd get their TWA seniority reinstated.

A lot of the issues I read here are the same and a lot of them are different.This current urination contest about AGC's ect. is a foreign language to me, as is the idea of another airline holding sway at the hall due to superior numbers.

I think the best thing we can do is exchange information, answer questions and get accurate information from each other.I'm sure you guys are hearing about the AA boogeymen the same way we're hearing about "US Airways doesn't have _____ and doesn't do ____" from people who "Know someone there".

Very much agreed JFK,

We may very well soon be on the same team! You seem well versed in organized labor issues… are you currently serving in any capacity with the TWU?

All the talk you are hearing about the AGC’s can be accredited to an election we are having in June for District Officers. This particular position comes with tremendous responsibility, and requires significant educational diligence, and labor savvy. The position does pay very well though, and it is usually a source of envy for those that want to pursue what they think is an easy high paying job that will get them off of the ramp!

The tickets are groups of people attempting to organize a coup d'état if you will… and overthrow the existing leadership from the district president down, and take the positions for themselves. As you may have read here… there is an ongoing and rigorous battle of wills between those that want to keep our existing team, and those who do not.

I’m an advocate of keeping the existing team in place, at least until we complete our current section six negotiations, along with the potential merger with your company getting either completed… or sidelined.

I do think it will be imperative for all of us to communicate frequently as things begin to move forward. Please stay in touch with all of us here in this forum.

Take care Bro...

 

[roabilly]

Sorry, I don't stay on this page all day and I missed your original question. Nonetheless, not sure what you were referring to since I believe I was talking to PJ and I said that I got the unanimous Hub endorsement from the US AIRWAYS hubs. I did.

Please quote me on what you are talking about and reference it. Quote my words, not yours if you are referencing me.

Onward!

I think he is asking for you to either admit, or clarify that your nomination was not exclusive. The way you are cleverly wording it... it sounds as if the N/D won't even be on the ballot! Actually, I’m curious as well… all I hear is how you were unanimously supported... is there more to the story? Can you tell me how many of your AGC candidates are now ineligible to serve?

 

[roabilly]

My guess is the final offer will pass, not by much, because the devil you know is slightly better than the devil you don't know.

Agreed my man...

Can you tell me if your GSE department falls under Fleet... or MX?

 

[CMH_GSE]

Agreed my man...

Can you tell me if your GSE department falls under Fleet... or MX?

We are in the MTX contract like you guys are.

I am confused by some things.
I was first told by a union rep that the IAM contract was what we would be working under if we merged, and , they posted the IAM contracts on 514's website.
Now, they post the terms of agreement with US Airways and it says nothing about working under the IAM contract, we would instead be working under the LBO from AA with modifications that reduce our 401k match and eliminate our profit sharing.
The term sheets said nothing about GSE MTX guys, a lot about saving jobs in Tulsa and some line mechanics.
The Fleet terms saved 30 stations that would have been closed for Fleet.
About the only thing GSE mechanics get out of it is a few more stations to bump to maybe (CLT, PHL, PHX, PIT, LAS) I think you guys still have one GSE guy in ELP ( we currently have 2 guys there), so I'm curious how that would be handled.

 

[Tim Nelson]

I think he is asking for you to either admit, or clarify that your nomination was not exclusive. The way you are cleverly wording it... it sounds as if the N/D won't even be on the ballot! Actually, I’m curious as well… all I hear is how you were unanimously supported... is there more to the story? Can you tell me how many of your AGC candidates are now ineligible to serve?

The questions, as I answered them, were directed towards me, individually. And I answered them in the clearest way possible, i.e., I got the unanimous US AIRWAYS hub endorsements. That means that CLT, PHL, and PHX all endorsed me over the current regime. Not sure what the fuss is???

Roabily, what are you hearing about the other candidates on my ticket? Not sure if you have all the information or not but you can ask me first hand. PJ said something about 10 of those on my ticket are not on the ballot, where are you guys getting your info? Bartz said the same thing. I want to know because I communicate to the Department of Labor's supervisor often. Please chime in on what you have been hearing. BTW, we wouldn't be having a Federally supervised election if our leadership didn't violate the LMRDA federal labor laws. Delaney can't do anything right, including running a clean election. It's a real shame that our district has to be treated like children with federal oversight. Yes, for those of you that have been out of the loop, the 2010 election is being rerun this time because Labor Laws were broken by the New Direction when they violated a members right to run for office.

BTW, although this election is going to be close, if Delaney gets in and does US AIRWAYS the way he did UA, i.e., negotiate for 3 years then instead of getting a contract he dumps them into transition talks, are you, PJ, and Mike 22 willing to step up and admit that you had prior knowledge and were warned not to put the US AIRWAYS brothers and sisters in the same New Direction firing squad that capped the Hawaiian airline brothers and sisters and the United Airline bros and sisters who were standing in front of the line? The best thing we have going for us is that the US AIRWAYS members can still make a choice and if they consider how Delaney supported management at Hawaiian and United [both groups who lined up before our talks] then there is no way anyone from US AIRWAYS could support the New Direction unless they had political blinders on.

One thing you haven't done other than spew alot of hot air about how I can't be trusted now, is you have NEVER addressed the two groups that went before us, i.e., Hawaiian and UA. You say that it doesn't matter how bad the New Direction hosed over UA and HAL, but it does. It is both illogical and absurd for someone who wants a good contract to see two employee groups get wiped out by the New Direction then beg for your own members to stay in the same firing squad line. Hopefully, I will not have to, but if Delaney gets in I will be revisiting the post of you, PJ, and Mike 33's about how you 3 insist that Delaney is going to change his ways and do you different than he did Hawaiian and United.

Put down the crack pipe and political blinders Roabily because with Delaney you will NOT have a leadership that demands then STANDS for a contract before entering transition talks. Even know, the IAM's stance is terrible. The IAM said, "We are neither going to support or oppose this merger until we know more about the US AIRWAYS/AMR contracts". That is lame. All we have to know is that the US AIRWAYS members need an industry leading contract that protects seniority and jobs BEFORE any merger with ANY other airline. With the TWU, IAM, IBT, it all comes down to dues and Delaney is NOT a leader to rise up against all the BS at the top.

At airtran, all employee groups at Airtran insisted on getting an Airtran contract before agreeing to transitions at Southwest. Delaney screwed over his UA members and will screw over the US AIRWAYS members. And the negotiations committee has no authority to stop it.



Onward!

 

[roabilly]

The questions, as I answered them, were directed towards me, individually. And I answered them in the clearest way possible, i.e., I got the unanimous US AIRWAYS hub endorsements. That means that CLT, PHL, and PHX all endorsed me over the current regime. Not sure what the fuss is???

Roabily, what are you hearing about the other candidates on my ticket? Not sure if you have all the information or not but you can ask me first hand. PJ said something about 10 of those on my ticket are not on the ballot, where are you guys getting your info? Bartz said the same thing. I want to know because I communicate to the Department of Labor's supervisor often. Please chime in on what you have been hearing. BTW, we wouldn't be having a Federally supervised election if our leadership didn't violate the LMRDA federal labor laws. Delaney can't do anything right, including running a clean election. It's a real shame that our district has to be treated like children with federal oversight. Yes, for those of you that have been out of the loop, the 2010 election is being rerun this time because Labor Laws were broken by the New Direction when they violated a members right to run for office.

BTW, although this election is going to be close, if Delaney gets in and does US AIRWAYS the way he did UA, i.e., negotiate for 3 years then instead of getting a contract he dumps them into transition talks, are you, PJ, and Mike 22 willing to step up and admit that you had prior knowledge and were warned not to put the US AIRWAYS brothers and sisters in the same New Direction firing squad that capped the Hawaiian airline brothers and sisters and the United Airline bros and sisters who were standing in front of the line? The best thing we have going for us is that the US AIRWAYS members can still make a choice and if they consider how Delaney supported management at Hawaiian and United [both groups who lined up before our talks] then there is no way anyone from US AIRWAYS could support the New Direction unless they had political blinders on.

One thing you haven't done other than spew alot of hot air about how I can't be trusted now, is you have NEVER addressed the two groups that went before us, i.e., Hawaiian and UA. You say that it doesn't matter how bad the New Direction hosed over UA and HAL, but it does. It is both illogical and absurd for someone who wants a good contract to see two employee groups get wiped out by the New Direction then beg for your own members to stay in the same firing squad line. Hopefully, I will not have to, but if Delaney gets in I will be revisiting the post of you, PJ, and Mike 33's about how you 3 insist that Delaney is going to change his ways and do you different than he did Hawaiian and United.

Put down the crack pipe and political blinders Roabily because with Delaney you will NOT have a leadership that demands then STANDS for a contract before entering transition talks. Even know, the IAM's stance is terrible. The IAM said, "We are neither going to support or oppose this merger until we know more about the US AIRWAYS/AMR contracts". That is lame. All we have to know is that the US AIRWAYS members need an industry leading contract that protects seniority and jobs BEFORE any merger with ANY other airline. With the TWU, IAM, IBT, it all comes down to dues and Delaney is NOT a leader to rise up against all the BS at the top.

At airtran, all employee groups at Airtran insisted on getting an Airtran contract before agreeing to transitions at Southwest. Delaney screwed over his UA members and will screw over the US AIRWAYS members. And the negotiations committee has no authority to stop it.



Onward!

How difficult is it to simply answer a question? Let’s try this again…

1] Is the N/D going to be on the ballot in June? (Yes or No)

2] Do you currently have any AGC candidates on you ticket that are ineligible to serve once elected per any IAM by-laws? (Yes or No)

3] Have any of your candidates incorrectly or otherwise failed to meet certain criteria in regards to adhering to DOL regulations and/or IAM by-laws? (Yes or No)


Just three simple yes or no questions… how hard can that be?

All of the hypothetical spinning and imaginary future chaos that you have presented as an argument is beyond ludicrous! Pinning you down to answer a question, is like trying to catch a greased pig with a fly strip!

 

[roabilly]

We are in the MTX contract like you guys are.

I am confused by some things.
I was first told by a union rep that the IAM contract was what we would be working under if we merged, and , they posted the IAM contracts on 514's website.
Now, they post the terms of agreement with US Airways and it says nothing about working under the IAM contract, we would instead be working under the LBO from AA with modifications that reduce our 401k match and eliminate our profit sharing.
The term sheets said nothing about GSE MTX guys, a lot about saving jobs in Tulsa and some line mechanics.
The Fleet terms saved 30 stations that would have been closed for Fleet.
About the only thing GSE mechanics get out of it is a few more stations to bump to maybe (CLT, PHL, PHX, PIT, LAS) I think you guys still have one GSE guy in ELP ( we currently have 2 guys there), so I'm curious how that would be handled.

Honestly, I do not have the answers… I could present hypothetic presumptions but that would not reconcile anything. My only suggestion is this…frequently question those at the helm of your union in these regards.

However, my guess is they probably wont know either… much of this based on what transpires with the pre-abrogation votes, and legal proceedings going forward in the merger process. There are a myriad of variables legal and otherwise that could come into play.

 

[mike33]

BTW, although this election is going to be close, if Delaney gets in and does US AIRWAYS the way he did UA, i.e., negotiate for 3 years then instead of getting a contract he dumps them into transition talks, are you, PJ, and Mike 22 willing to step up and admit that you had prior knowledge and were warned not to put the US AIRWAYS brothers and sisters in the same New Direction firing squad that capped the Hawaiian airline brothers and sisters and the United Airline bros and sisters who were standing in front of the line?

Hopefully, I will not have to, but if Delaney gets in I will be revisiting the post of you, PJ, and Mike 33's about how you 3 insist that Delaney is going to change his ways and do you different than he did Hawaiian and United.

WTF are you talking about? What prior knowledge?.....About what?......

And you can revisit my posts anytime you want. I have no idea who is going to win but you are making my desicion a lot easier BTW with threats of " Reposting ".

"I cannot give you the formula for success, but I can give you the formula for failure: which is: Try to please everybody".
Herbert B. Swope

My prior knowledge consists of my opinion not some inside information of knowledge ! Its simple for me when 75% of the eligible voters vote for something and that leaves 25% a no vote (referring to HA )....That not prior knowledge, thats arithmetic ....................Bark up someone else's tree Tim.

We are in negotiations. My right as a voting member of this union is to vote the way i choose. I choose for different reasons than you. Plain and simple.....!

And my line of thinking as i read these boards is that you use the term " Unanimous" as deceiving the average reader. You lead the reader to believe you are the only Ticket in the hubs. No big deal to me, i can decipher it just fine but not everyone can. There is a difference of all the hubs Unanimously supporting the ticket ur on and being Unanimously supported ..........................i don't give a rats arse but it is deceiving language.


"Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel". ~John Quinton

 

[700UW]

We are in the MTX contract like you guys are.

I am confused by some things.
I was first told by a union rep that the IAM contract was what we would be working under if we merged, and , they posted the IAM contracts on 514's website.
Now, they post the terms of agreement with US Airways and it says nothing about working under the IAM contract, we would instead be working under the LBO from AA with modifications that reduce our 401k match and eliminate our profit sharing.
The term sheets said nothing about GSE MTX guys, a lot about saving jobs in Tulsa and some line mechanics.
The Fleet terms saved 30 stations that would have been closed for Fleet.
About the only thing GSE mechanics get out of it is a few more stations to bump to maybe (CLT, PHL, PHX, PIT, LAS) I think you guys still have one GSE guy in ELP ( we currently have 2 guys there), so I'm curious how that would be handled.

It would have to be negotiated in a transition agreement.

 

[Tim Nelson]

How difficult is it to simply answer a question? Let’s try this again…

1] Is the N/D going to be on the ballot in June? (Yes or No)

2] Do you currently have any AGC candidates on you ticket that are ineligible to serve once elected per any IAM by-laws? (Yes or No)

3] Have any of your candidates incorrectly or otherwise failed to meet certain criteria in regards to adhering to DOL regulations and/or IAM by-laws? (Yes or No)


Just three simple yes or no questions… how hard can that be?

All of the hypothetical spinning and imaginary future chaos that you have presented as an argument is beyond ludicrous! Pinning you down to answer a question, is like trying to catch a greased pig with a fly strip!

As I said, I have not received the official word on anything. I should know on Monday, if not later today. I think you were given inaccurate information about 10 members being kicked off. Don't get me wrong, the New Direction tried to but I don't think you were properly informed. I should be able to answer your questions shortly though. But you and PJ said 10 on the occupy ticket got kicked off so I'll ask you again, where did you get your information? And, since you are trying to throw US AIRWAYS members under the bus by putting political blinders on, why don't you come clean and debate the fairly basic questions I asked you about why anyone in their right mind would want to keep the New Direction when they screwed over Hawaiian airlines and United airlines in negotiations and now with US AIRWAYS up at the firing line you want to pull the trigger on them? Keeping a United Airline president who screwed over his own isn't going to bode well for his 'second best children'. Please, instead of saying "Nelson is a $&*&" focus yourself and argue your support for Delaney by kindly basing your support on his actions in negotiations over the past 4 years. BTW, and what about that attendance policy he was going to 'fix'? Do you even have any idea or clue what has happened over the past 4 years or are you just being used as a tool by posting nothing but continual rhetoric and bashing me? Amazing how you 'took my word for things' this past fall, then after I announce I'm running against Delaney you flipped like a pancake and accused me of being a liar, BSer, and all of the other crap that you have been saying about me. Again, if Delaney is worthy then kindly tell us why he screwed over Hawaiian and United and start telling the truth Roabily instead of being used as a tool for the New Direction.

Onward!

 

[Tim Nelson]

WTF are you talking about? What poor knowledge?.....About what?......

And you can revisit my posts anytime you want. I have no idea who is going to win but you are making my desicion a lot easier BTW with threats of " Reposting ".

"I cannot give you the formula for success, but I can give you the formula for failure: which is: Try to please everybody".
Herbert B. Swope

My prior knowledge consists of my opinion not some inside information of knowledge ! Its simple for me when 75% of the eligible voters vote for something and that leaves 25% a no vote (referring to HA )....That not prior knowledge, thats arithmetic ....................Bark up someone else's tree Tim.

We are in negotiations. My right as a voting member of this union is to vote the way i choose. I choose for different reasons than you. Plain and simple.....!

And my line of thinking as i read these boards is that you use the term " Unanimous" as deceiving the average reader. You lead the reader to believe you are the only Ticket in the hubs. No big deal to me, i can decipher it just fine but not everyone can. There is a difference of all the hubs Unanimously supporting the ticket ur on and being Unanimously supported ..........................i don't give a rats arse but it is deceiving language.


"Politicians are people who, when they see light at the end of the tunnel, go out and buy some more tunnel". ~John Quinton

Mike 33,
I got the unanimous Hub endorsements at US AIRWAYS hubs. That's the fact. I happen to think the average reader is bright enough to realize this, even though I know that you, Roabily, and PJ have political blinders on and want to make issue with practically anything I say.

You want to keep Delaney then that's fine I'm not kissing anyone's butt for votes but I will challenge members who are seriously misinformed. I love my life so I'm not afraid of losing this election by telling you or anyone else that you are being less than fair by giving Delaney a free pass on the Hawaiian airline contract and placing the blame with the membership. After the second Hawaiian T/A delaney told them that if they voted out this terrible contract that the next one would be worse. That's been the IAM way for every airline property and it is just totally profane and wrong. They beat down the membership. I don't blame the membership at all because they DON"T DESERVE THAT NASTY CONTRACT. You want to blame the members and not the leadership then go ahead if it makes you feel good about Delaney.

I blame leadership 100%. Why can't you simply say that Delaney was wrong to negotiate a contract that supports management in paying part timers half of full time and forces members to pay for their parking? Why the hell would any labor guy side with management after proclaiming to the membership "Equal work = Equal Pay?" Kindly check the iam webpage and you will still see that that was his smoke blowing stance before he supported management. Why can't you admit that Delaney was totally wrong for lying to the UA members and after 3 years of negotiations he flips like a pancake and throws all of his own into transition talks? Take off the blinders Mike because if we are so unfortunate to get stuck with Delaney another 4 years then there is no logical reason to expect that Delaney would treat the US AIRWAYS members any better than how he treated his own. Yes, you have been given prior knowledge consisting of Delaney's actions of signing a terrible HA agreement and his actions at United. And you chose to place those actions by blaming the membership. Just make sure the blame is placed rightly when Delaney [if we get stuck with him again] does the exact same thing he did at Hawaiian and United with our members at US AIRWAYS.

Onward!

 

[700UW]

You do know what unanimous means right?

How man fleet were at the union meeting? As you know it is usually a low turn out.

So that means every single vote cast was for you and none for the other candidates for PDGC.

Spin spin spin.

 

[mike33]

Mike 33,
I got the unanimous Hub endorsements at US AIRWAYS hubs. That's the fact. I happen to think the average reader is bright enough to realize this, even though I know that you, Roabily, and PJ have political blinders on and want to make issue with practically anything I say.

You want to keep Delaney then that's fine I'm not kissing anyone's butt for votes but I will challenge members who are seriously misinformed. I love my life so I'm not afraid of losing this election by telling you or anyone else that you are being less than fair by giving Delaney a free pass on the Hawaiian airline contract and placing the blame with the membership. After the second Hawaiian T/A delaney told them that if they voted out this terrible contract that the next one would be worse. That's been the IAM way for every airline property and it is just totally profane and wrong. They beat down the membership. I don't blame the membership at all because they DON"T DESERVE THAT NASTY CONTRACT. You want to blame the members and not the leadership then go ahead if it makes you feel good about Delaney.

I blame leadership 100%. Why can't you simply say that Delaney was wrong to negotiate a contract that supports management in paying part timers half of full time and forces members to pay for their parking? Why the hell would any labor guy side with management after proclaiming to the membership "Equal work = Equal Pay?" Kindly check the iam webpage and you will still see that that was his smoke blowing stance before he supported management. Why can't you admit that Delaney was totally wrong for lying to the UA members and after 3 years of negotiations he flips like a pancake and throws all of his own into transition talks? Take off the blinders Mike because if we are so unfortunate to get stuck with Delaney another 4 years then there is no logical reason to expect that Delaney would treat the US AIRWAYS members any better than how he treated his own. Yes, you have been given prior knowledge consisting of Delaney's actions of signing a terrible HA agreement and his actions at United. And you chose to place those actions by blaming the membership. Just make sure the blame is placed rightly when Delaney [if we get stuck with him again] does the exact same thing he did at Hawaiian and United with our members at US AIRWAYS.

Onward!

Spin it anyway you want. What ever jerks your chain !

And i don't know what loving your life has to do with any of this !!!!!

Please don't answer that ! its your business and i have things to do