T
Fleet Service topic IAM 141
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The Bagfather
Senior
Shocker: I think your being a little harsh on our noble compatriot TN.
Maybe Canale is a little sensative these days. He's been threatened
with a DFR and a possible SEC violation not to mention being tossed
into the street in June. I also respect your right to vote yes if you
so desire. But maybe you could help me understand. What info
did you pick up it PIT. If you think it would help please share with us.
Read below Pervs post and analysis. That's where I'm coming from.
But I'm ready to listen to the other side. Thanks BF
Maybe Canale is a little sensative these days. He's been threatened
with a DFR and a possible SEC violation not to mention being tossed
into the street in June. I also respect your right to vote yes if you
so desire. But maybe you could help me understand. What info
did you pick up it PIT. If you think it would help please share with us.
Read below Pervs post and analysis. That's where I'm coming from.
But I'm ready to listen to the other side. Thanks BF
T
The Shocker
Guest
Noble? TN? Bottom line the man has 'No Direction'.
What DFR? Possible SEC violation? Please elaborate. I would like to know what these are.
I received the same info people are reading from the TA on 141.
giantfan
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Just for the record if the T/A had been voted for in September for those of you topped out you would have made an extra $2000 by now. That's not including any overtime you may have worked. Not a huge amount of money but I bet most of use could use 2k at about now.
The only reason ppl didn't vote it in is b/c of the looming CIC decision. That was worth it, wasn't it??
If you're voting no b/c of the possibility of being out-sourced in 3 years than that's your decision but your giving up money you could be making now. The co. would love for us to vote NO....the less they have to pay us. They won't keep going to the table.
Tell me why so many ppl ratified every contract with paycuts over the last 8 years and not one with a payraise?? Am I missing something here? And please don't start on Canale and what a crook, blah, blah, blah, blah...............
The only reason ppl didn't vote it in is b/c of the looming CIC decision. That was worth it, wasn't it??
If you're voting no b/c of the possibility of being out-sourced in 3 years than that's your decision but your giving up money you could be making now. The co. would love for us to vote NO....the less they have to pay us. They won't keep going to the table.
Tell me why so many ppl ratified every contract with paycuts over the last 8 years and not one with a payraise?? Am I missing something here? And please don't start on Canale and what a crook, blah, blah, blah, blah...............
The Bagfather
Senior
It feels like to me that the other side is trying to scare us out of voting no.
I get mad at Canale every so often but I don't believe he's a crook.
Someone else a while back remarked that he was smarter and knew
the ropes and ins and outs better that most will care to admit. I guess
part of that means he can't really be totally honest and forthcoming
to the rank and file.
I'm ready to be convinced, but right now I can't see it at all. Practically
all of CA. will loose with the exception of the east guys in LAX. The
outsource potential west stations will loose. The east hubs will stay
about the same. The contract extention looses to inflation. Practically
every aspect of it is a no for me. Pervs post on the contract is
preaty powerful and to the point and I don't read any fear tactis there.
I'm in a relatively humble mood so I'm going to give Canale some
credit. I could be wrong but I took his statement about the passing
or failing of the TA being up to the rank and file, and that he has
confidence in thier decision. to be genuine. Thanks BF
robbedagain
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Fleet Service had a Judge in CH11 ram a contract down our throats Fleet also had a 60 day rule thrown in the sick is definetly in the ICU the union supponsely was offered a 15 anhr across the board at the time of ch11 part 2 but was never presented to members no other groups have the 60 day rule just fleet
JoeDirt
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Had to correct some math the figures above are now correct.
727_4_Ever
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First of all let me say that I’m not posting to tell anyone how to vote on the T/A. This is a personal decision that each person has to make on their own. I just have to ramble. These are just some observations and thoughts that I have regarding the T/A and the process of negotiating the T/A. The last T/A was voted out by a good margin but I feel this time it’ll be very close.
NEGOTIATIONS
It’s kind of like a child at the dinner table who doesn’t want to eat what’s for dinner. He’s told that it’s all he’s going to get and he can sit there until he’s hungry enough to eat it because he’s not getting anything else. He’s fine for awhile and holds his ground because he hates liver and onions with spinach. Hours pass and it gets cold but his parents stand strong and refuse to give him anything else. He starts to get hungry. (Really hungry if he lives west of the Mississippi). Mom is ready to put him to bed but can’t do that until he eats so she offers to warm it up in the microwave for him. She does but it’s still liver and onions with spinach. Just older and less tasty. Now he’s hungry enough to eat it and Mom gets him to bed because tomorrow the babysitter is coming and Mom and Dad are going to Morton’s for fillet. If only Grandma (the proper negotiator) was around to deal with Mom and Dad the child could have had much better. Grandma doesn’t sympathize with Mom and Dad and that’s good. Too many people keep talking about the economy and fuel etc. etc. I don’t deny what’s going on but it’s affecting not just the company but also the employees trying to live. Look at what the negotiator for Southwest has to say about the situation and their negotiations.
“Ground workers at Southwest Airlines Co. have begun negotiations with the Dallas-based carrier, with the acknowledgement Tuesday that they go into the talks at the top of the industry's pay scale. President Charles Cerf of Transport Workers Union Local 555 said Southwest employees "deserve to be there. We're the most productive and the hardest-working employees." Mr. Cerf said union members "understand the climate that Southwest is operating in, with the volatile market, fluctuating oil prices and economic uncertainty." The airline needs to understand that higher prices are also hurting the union's members, who must buy gasoline for their cars and food for their families, he said.â€
Am I asking for what Southwest has?? No….not even close. But the attitude of Cerf is the attitude we need. Not someone who keeps making excuses as to why the company won’t give more. I’m just wanting a FAIR contract. The last time I was at a Town Hall meeting, Parker was asked about his huge salary and bonuses. He stated that he did earn a whole lot and wasn’t sure if he should get that much but it was just the standard CEO type of pay. That justifies getting it even in these trying times as far as our Exec’s are concerned. All I ask is for is an Industry standard contract. We can’t even get close to that. We are starting with a BK contract and getting nothing without giving up something.
One other thing with negotiations that bother me. I’ve heard this with our other negotiations and I’m starting to hear this about this round of negotiations. Al goes to a room and the “team†is in another room or in the hall etc. Canale goes to see Al and reports back to the “team†as he sees fit. NOT GOOD if this is true. The whole “team†that we pick should be in that room at all times. No under the table deals. No secret IOU’s. Keep it all out in the open.
WHY NEGOTIATE WITH US?
Another question I have is WHY does the company keep coming back to negotiate? They have nothing better to give so why keep coming back and serving us this dinner we refuse to eat? They need something. What? Does it bother Parker that this BK contract has industry low pay and benefits? NO. Maybe it’s the fact that his own AW people aren’t even getting the pay the BK east people are? NO WAY. Believe me he doesn’t lose one minute of sleep over their suffering. So what is it? One common denominator in the contracts that have been settled so far. COC has been removed each time. I hear you Freedom that the COC arbitration was lost and is worthless. Parker told us it was worth nothing before arbitration so we should have just listened to him. NOT. If it’s worthless then just leave it in the contracts and don’t worry about it. But I don’t believe it’s worthless. Read through the arbitrator’s findings and as he explains what needed to occur for us to win he explains that due to this being a BK type CIC the stock was disposed of and reissued during the process and thus messed up our case. I believe this means that in a non-BK type of CIC where the stock is not destroyed this clause would be good and payable. Thus it must be removed to smoothly proceed with Merger Mania. If not for this clause the company would be more than happy to let things just continue on the way they are. The CIC was not why I voted no the last time. It’s because I would have been voting myself into an industry low deal.
STATEMENTS THAT IRK ME
Freedom I like your passion on these boards. You struggle with these T/A decisions and at least that shows you think about it without just making a rash yes or no decision. But you are hungry and I understand with what the west is being fed. The liver and onions are looking to be not so bad. But one thing that I hate to see you say is in dealing with Parker and Company’s pay and bonuses. You make remarks like That’s just corporate America. All companies do this. Etc. Etc. Parker and the Exec’s in the USA love you for this. IF they have any conscious left at all doing these things while totally raping the masses may disrupt their sleep a bit. But when anyone in the masses says “That’s just corporate America†Etc. Etc. They breathe a huge sigh of relief and say I guess it’s OK now I can sleep because they understand. They are such an understanding bunch. Not picking on you Freedom. Like I said I appreciate your passion on the issues and understand you guys are sick and tired of being beat down. We all are….just some more than others. Another statement that kills me is when 700 talks about these screwings and such and says “Parker has a fiduciary duty to the stockholders of this companyâ€â€¦LOL….LOL….. Yes he does if he follows the law. But the Judges in America evidently don’t have time to hear cases of CEO’s not abiding by their fiduciary duties because the crimes continue. Parker and the CEO club continue to give themselves enough money to fill a fleet of armored cars even as their companies stock is plummeting and their companies go BK. Our stock is plummeting right now as Parker files the 8-K stating what bonuses his friends and he are going to pocket this year. Where’s the fiduciary duty in that????? And don’t tell me (a former stockholder) about that law. When this company was ran into BK by bad management the stock was wiped away and new stock was issued. Issued to the people that there was a “Fiduciary Duty†to????? NOT. Issued to the idiots who ran this place into the ground and any new suckers they could get to thrown money at them. Screw Fiduciary duty. It doesn’t exist. The only fiduciary duty Parker knows is to him and his team.
SO WHAT DO I THINK IS FAIR
Before I get started I can already hear the mech’s and other work groups on this board coming at me. I’ve heard all the arguments about how long others have been represented and how skilled certain groups are over others and their importance to the company….yada yada yada….. Well all I’m talking about is percentages and such as compared to what you lost and what you currently make. You’ll never hear me say I should earn what a Pilot, Mechanic, or such make. Not ever. What I’m saying is if one group can get a 10% raise then the company should be able to do that for all. I’m talking percentages which would be FAIR to all groups. If the F/A’s negotiate a 38% raise would other groups feel cheated with a 10% raise? They better. The company can recognize 10 holidays for one group they should recognize 10 for all. Vacation same. Your pay and pension and such set each group apart. No need for everything to be so skewed. We once had the same holidays as other groups and lost them. If other groups get them back so should we. Look at other airlines that aren’t even union and it’s hard to grasp that their airline has the same problems facing them with less money in reserve and yet they can pay more and give better benefits than this place. Something’s fishy? That goes back to the negotiation process that’s failing.
ANOTHER PROBLEM….EXPLAIN IT TO ME PLEASE
The letter from Canale states that the company will no longer negotiate with us after this and he’ll just put the West under the East if this doesn’t go. Maybe I don’t understand things correctly but my understanding of the Railway Labor Act is contracts NEVER expire. They are in effect until a new one is agreed upon or if none are agreed upon then you get released by the NMB to strike. I must be wrong because I would tell the company that we’ll just leave the East the way they are for now as they have some time left on their contract. But as for the West now we must do something (and I don’t mean force them into a BK deal). I would go to section 6 and start negotiating immediately and follow the process through as quickly as possible. Why oh Why is this option never mentioned by the IAM? Is there a reason we can’t do this? I don’t understand. If they’d have started this a long time ago they may be somewhere by now. This is ridiculous to keep wasting time bringing back the same warmed over food that we’ve turned our nose up to before. Just reheating it in the microwave is not getting it. In fact the waves from that NUKE are removing a lot of the nutrients from the meal. Things that we need for nourishment to survive like a pension increase and such. GONE. Really not good.
MERGER WITH UNITED?????????
We are all hearing the rumors. Well if we take this deal and a merger is right around the corner do you think for one minute that they’ll just put us up to United wages, vacation, etc. etc. HELL NO. Ask anyone out west about that one. They’d have years of leaving us with this deal and never once feel the need to do otherwise. We’d have what we have right now. Two separate units with different pay and benefits. Sucks.
Sorry I’ve rambled so long and I doubt anyone has read this far but I don’t have time for these boards like I’d like and so when I do find time I have to let all this pent up frustration out. Read the whole thing and do what you feel is right for you and your family. Everyone is hungry and it’d be nice to at least get some ground beef while Parker and friends eat the Filet and Lobster. Have a good evening.
NEGOTIATIONS
It’s kind of like a child at the dinner table who doesn’t want to eat what’s for dinner. He’s told that it’s all he’s going to get and he can sit there until he’s hungry enough to eat it because he’s not getting anything else. He’s fine for awhile and holds his ground because he hates liver and onions with spinach. Hours pass and it gets cold but his parents stand strong and refuse to give him anything else. He starts to get hungry. (Really hungry if he lives west of the Mississippi). Mom is ready to put him to bed but can’t do that until he eats so she offers to warm it up in the microwave for him. She does but it’s still liver and onions with spinach. Just older and less tasty. Now he’s hungry enough to eat it and Mom gets him to bed because tomorrow the babysitter is coming and Mom and Dad are going to Morton’s for fillet. If only Grandma (the proper negotiator) was around to deal with Mom and Dad the child could have had much better. Grandma doesn’t sympathize with Mom and Dad and that’s good. Too many people keep talking about the economy and fuel etc. etc. I don’t deny what’s going on but it’s affecting not just the company but also the employees trying to live. Look at what the negotiator for Southwest has to say about the situation and their negotiations.
“Ground workers at Southwest Airlines Co. have begun negotiations with the Dallas-based carrier, with the acknowledgement Tuesday that they go into the talks at the top of the industry's pay scale. President Charles Cerf of Transport Workers Union Local 555 said Southwest employees "deserve to be there. We're the most productive and the hardest-working employees." Mr. Cerf said union members "understand the climate that Southwest is operating in, with the volatile market, fluctuating oil prices and economic uncertainty." The airline needs to understand that higher prices are also hurting the union's members, who must buy gasoline for their cars and food for their families, he said.â€
Am I asking for what Southwest has?? No….not even close. But the attitude of Cerf is the attitude we need. Not someone who keeps making excuses as to why the company won’t give more. I’m just wanting a FAIR contract. The last time I was at a Town Hall meeting, Parker was asked about his huge salary and bonuses. He stated that he did earn a whole lot and wasn’t sure if he should get that much but it was just the standard CEO type of pay. That justifies getting it even in these trying times as far as our Exec’s are concerned. All I ask is for is an Industry standard contract. We can’t even get close to that. We are starting with a BK contract and getting nothing without giving up something.
One other thing with negotiations that bother me. I’ve heard this with our other negotiations and I’m starting to hear this about this round of negotiations. Al goes to a room and the “team†is in another room or in the hall etc. Canale goes to see Al and reports back to the “team†as he sees fit. NOT GOOD if this is true. The whole “team†that we pick should be in that room at all times. No under the table deals. No secret IOU’s. Keep it all out in the open.
WHY NEGOTIATE WITH US?
Another question I have is WHY does the company keep coming back to negotiate? They have nothing better to give so why keep coming back and serving us this dinner we refuse to eat? They need something. What? Does it bother Parker that this BK contract has industry low pay and benefits? NO. Maybe it’s the fact that his own AW people aren’t even getting the pay the BK east people are? NO WAY. Believe me he doesn’t lose one minute of sleep over their suffering. So what is it? One common denominator in the contracts that have been settled so far. COC has been removed each time. I hear you Freedom that the COC arbitration was lost and is worthless. Parker told us it was worth nothing before arbitration so we should have just listened to him. NOT. If it’s worthless then just leave it in the contracts and don’t worry about it. But I don’t believe it’s worthless. Read through the arbitrator’s findings and as he explains what needed to occur for us to win he explains that due to this being a BK type CIC the stock was disposed of and reissued during the process and thus messed up our case. I believe this means that in a non-BK type of CIC where the stock is not destroyed this clause would be good and payable. Thus it must be removed to smoothly proceed with Merger Mania. If not for this clause the company would be more than happy to let things just continue on the way they are. The CIC was not why I voted no the last time. It’s because I would have been voting myself into an industry low deal.
STATEMENTS THAT IRK ME
Freedom I like your passion on these boards. You struggle with these T/A decisions and at least that shows you think about it without just making a rash yes or no decision. But you are hungry and I understand with what the west is being fed. The liver and onions are looking to be not so bad. But one thing that I hate to see you say is in dealing with Parker and Company’s pay and bonuses. You make remarks like That’s just corporate America. All companies do this. Etc. Etc. Parker and the Exec’s in the USA love you for this. IF they have any conscious left at all doing these things while totally raping the masses may disrupt their sleep a bit. But when anyone in the masses says “That’s just corporate America†Etc. Etc. They breathe a huge sigh of relief and say I guess it’s OK now I can sleep because they understand. They are such an understanding bunch. Not picking on you Freedom. Like I said I appreciate your passion on the issues and understand you guys are sick and tired of being beat down. We all are….just some more than others. Another statement that kills me is when 700 talks about these screwings and such and says “Parker has a fiduciary duty to the stockholders of this companyâ€â€¦LOL….LOL….. Yes he does if he follows the law. But the Judges in America evidently don’t have time to hear cases of CEO’s not abiding by their fiduciary duties because the crimes continue. Parker and the CEO club continue to give themselves enough money to fill a fleet of armored cars even as their companies stock is plummeting and their companies go BK. Our stock is plummeting right now as Parker files the 8-K stating what bonuses his friends and he are going to pocket this year. Where’s the fiduciary duty in that????? And don’t tell me (a former stockholder) about that law. When this company was ran into BK by bad management the stock was wiped away and new stock was issued. Issued to the people that there was a “Fiduciary Duty†to????? NOT. Issued to the idiots who ran this place into the ground and any new suckers they could get to thrown money at them. Screw Fiduciary duty. It doesn’t exist. The only fiduciary duty Parker knows is to him and his team.
SO WHAT DO I THINK IS FAIR
Before I get started I can already hear the mech’s and other work groups on this board coming at me. I’ve heard all the arguments about how long others have been represented and how skilled certain groups are over others and their importance to the company….yada yada yada….. Well all I’m talking about is percentages and such as compared to what you lost and what you currently make. You’ll never hear me say I should earn what a Pilot, Mechanic, or such make. Not ever. What I’m saying is if one group can get a 10% raise then the company should be able to do that for all. I’m talking percentages which would be FAIR to all groups. If the F/A’s negotiate a 38% raise would other groups feel cheated with a 10% raise? They better. The company can recognize 10 holidays for one group they should recognize 10 for all. Vacation same. Your pay and pension and such set each group apart. No need for everything to be so skewed. We once had the same holidays as other groups and lost them. If other groups get them back so should we. Look at other airlines that aren’t even union and it’s hard to grasp that their airline has the same problems facing them with less money in reserve and yet they can pay more and give better benefits than this place. Something’s fishy? That goes back to the negotiation process that’s failing.
ANOTHER PROBLEM….EXPLAIN IT TO ME PLEASE
The letter from Canale states that the company will no longer negotiate with us after this and he’ll just put the West under the East if this doesn’t go. Maybe I don’t understand things correctly but my understanding of the Railway Labor Act is contracts NEVER expire. They are in effect until a new one is agreed upon or if none are agreed upon then you get released by the NMB to strike. I must be wrong because I would tell the company that we’ll just leave the East the way they are for now as they have some time left on their contract. But as for the West now we must do something (and I don’t mean force them into a BK deal). I would go to section 6 and start negotiating immediately and follow the process through as quickly as possible. Why oh Why is this option never mentioned by the IAM? Is there a reason we can’t do this? I don’t understand. If they’d have started this a long time ago they may be somewhere by now. This is ridiculous to keep wasting time bringing back the same warmed over food that we’ve turned our nose up to before. Just reheating it in the microwave is not getting it. In fact the waves from that NUKE are removing a lot of the nutrients from the meal. Things that we need for nourishment to survive like a pension increase and such. GONE. Really not good.
MERGER WITH UNITED?????????
We are all hearing the rumors. Well if we take this deal and a merger is right around the corner do you think for one minute that they’ll just put us up to United wages, vacation, etc. etc. HELL NO. Ask anyone out west about that one. They’d have years of leaving us with this deal and never once feel the need to do otherwise. We’d have what we have right now. Two separate units with different pay and benefits. Sucks.
Sorry I’ve rambled so long and I doubt anyone has read this far but I don’t have time for these boards like I’d like and so when I do find time I have to let all this pent up frustration out. Read the whole thing and do what you feel is right for you and your family. Everyone is hungry and it’d be nice to at least get some ground beef while Parker and friends eat the Filet and Lobster. Have a good evening.
wheels up!!
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Agreed, well said.
LuggageJockey
Member
First let me say that I understand your point completely about the newbies.
However I only just found out about this forum & I'm trying to stay informed & see both sides & opinions so after I read the t/a I can make a informed decision ON MY OWN.
As for Canale I think he's a POS only looking out for his personal gain...Kinda funny how UA has a better contract than us yet the same union.
orioleman
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giantfan sez,
"Raise your hand if another merger is going to get me anymore money anytime soon? If the co wants to merge ahead with another airline do honestly think little ol' Fleet is going to stop them? Be realistic."
Then answer this question one thats long in the tooth. WHY HASN'T US gotten in the GAME yet . HMMMMM maybe just maybe
the investors are a little concerned over SHARING the future PROFITS with a bunch of blue collar workers and maybe just maybe
they don't want that COC language to kick in . Since if you read it in a traditional (NON BK merger) the writing is pretty well spelled
out .
" These ppl who want to vote NO as a protest are taking money out of your pocket. It's not a perfect contract but it's the only sitting infront of us with something better than we got now.
I am not willing to wait anymore. I'm voting YES."
for someone who a few pages back complained about everyone voicing there vote on here. YOU seem to be pretty full of yourself
it would appear you just want to stir the pot. YOU made your point. YOU get to VOTE . so go do it. and quite being a hypocrite.
"Raise your hand if another merger is going to get me anymore money anytime soon? If the co wants to merge ahead with another airline do honestly think little ol' Fleet is going to stop them? Be realistic."
Then answer this question one thats long in the tooth. WHY HASN'T US gotten in the GAME yet . HMMMMM maybe just maybe
the investors are a little concerned over SHARING the future PROFITS with a bunch of blue collar workers and maybe just maybe
they don't want that COC language to kick in . Since if you read it in a traditional (NON BK merger) the writing is pretty well spelled
out .
" These ppl who want to vote NO as a protest are taking money out of your pocket. It's not a perfect contract but it's the only sitting infront of us with something better than we got now.
I am not willing to wait anymore. I'm voting YES."
for someone who a few pages back complained about everyone voicing there vote on here. YOU seem to be pretty full of yourself
it would appear you just want to stir the pot. YOU made your point. YOU get to VOTE . so go do it. and quite being a hypocrite.
orioleman
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L J.
"As for Canale I think he's a POS only looking out for his personal gain...Kinda funny how UA has a better contract than us yet the same union."
that would be because the UA boys didn't listen to the band of theives come around with the gloom and doom .. and "live to fight another day speech" . I guess they saw through all the B/S and said LET THE JUDGE DECIDE.. which he did. So actually they can
thank the BK judge for that not the IAM ........
"As for Canale I think he's a POS only looking out for his personal gain...Kinda funny how UA has a better contract than us yet the same union."
that would be because the UA boys didn't listen to the band of theives come around with the gloom and doom .. and "live to fight another day speech" . I guess they saw through all the B/S and said LET THE JUDGE DECIDE.. which he did. So actually they can
thank the BK judge for that not the IAM ........
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