Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[robbedagain]

so what youre really saying is the folks at DL get what other unionized folks get   yet the ramp is not completely DL mainline now is it?  example  BWI Bagroom is not DL mainline  that's a fact jack    so no they don't get everything a union represented peeps get.    but then again I would not expect a FORMER DL REVENUE MGMT to understand union stuff anyways.    And DL has AT Will folks  they can whip them around any time  for any reason without the folks having a say  

 

[WorldTraveler]

And what percentage of airline employees are unionized?

as a union salesman, you should be able to whip that stat out pretty quickly.

the vast majority are.

but it still doesn't change that DL employees, without a union, are higher paid than average in the US industry and have seen and are seeing larger increases in compensation than their unionized peers.

 

[Kev3188]

and guess what? Americans get those things without unions as well.

...They wouldn't if unions went away...

 

[WorldTraveler]

you sure of that?
it's not exactly like gravity or nuclear bonds will all stop working.

 

[topDawg]

 
Great! So lets start paying these players, then have them reimburse their college tuition, meal ticket and room & board out of their check!
 
UGA and the NCAA have made Billions off of Gurley's name....please show us where you obtained this infomation!

your pretty foolish if you think someone like a Gurley wouldn't take that offer in a heart beat. He would be making millions off of things like autographs and jerseys (along with sponsorship and such) 
 
And I didn't word that right, the NCAA makes billions off of the players names. UGAA doesn't break down its memorabilia sales by player sadly but its not hard to see how many of those 60 dollar jerseys around Athens have been because of guys like Gurley, Murray, Staffy and Know. 

the rate of unionization in the private sector is less than 7%.

half of union workers are in the public sector despite the public sector in the US being much smaller than the private sector.

further, states esp. in the upper midwest are taking a hard approach to mandatory unionization of public employees.

WI's governor has succeeded at fending off one challenge after another despite initiating some of the toughest reforms of a state's public workers. MI's governor has done much of the same.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/union2.nr0.htm

there would be no problem finding replacement workers for most employees in the US.

Jobs like Mechanics are going to be hard to find replacements for. 
 
Delta, for example, would only be able to ship work out to places like Asia if it lost all of its A&Ps. The trickle down effect would also hurt US MROs like TIMCO, AAR etc. 
 
And of course it would be highly unlikely Delta would be able to keep even a small part of the (almost) billion TechOps brings in. 

sorry, Kev, but there isn't anything about what I wrote that is anti-worker.

I did write the truth about union performance - and your fellow Americans have wholeheartedly agreed with me.

I don't vote in WI or MI.

Citizens there could have thrown those governors out - but didn't.

Unionized public employees in those states got out when they had a chance to do so.

If unions delivered something of value, they wouldn't be doing that.

DL employees have lived and will live by the same principle. If unions can deliver more of value than what DL employees have now, a union makes sense.


DL employees have repeatedly failed to see that value - and the list of failed unionization attempts at DL shows its.

I'm not anti-worker Kevin.

I'm rooted in reality with both feet firmly planted on the ground

Your anti-worker. 
 
your basically whatever Delta tells you to be. 
 

Guess you forgot once again that Virgin American FAs, JetBlue's ramp and Spirit's Ramp all recently unionized?
 
Thats three more employee groups at three different airlines that wanted and got representation.

and the B6 pilots
 

I am admitting there are less airlines and employees around due to inept management, events like SARS and 9/11.
 
And are the bankruptcy laws fair in this country?
 
Why should employees get their pensions terminated and a CEO who failed his employees and shareholders walkaway with $6 million in his pension for being there two years vs an employee who has over 20?
 
Did DL's non-union employees have a say in what happened to them in chapter 11 vs any other airline employee who were unionized?

^this^
 

so unions really couldn't stop mgmt. or BK laws?

and the results are clear- DL cut a smaller percentage of its workforce between 2000 and NW's exit from BK as the last of the 4 bankruptcies in that decade.

Only CO and AA fared better since they didn't file for BK in the decade of 9/11.

Unions have been told many times by the NMB that they aren't going to be released into self help. If you can't strike legally as a union you quickly start losing power. 
 
and United had groups that did just fine in BK. The Mechanics made the choice to outsource more but they kept higher pay and time off. I am pretty sure they have 6 or 7 weeks of vacation. Delta for example went to 4 weeks in BK. 
 

and guess what? Americans get those things without unions as well.

which is probably why they don't see a need for unions as reflected by private sector unionization rates less than 7%.

If it wasn't for unions the labor world would be a lot worse. Now a big chunk of the labor movement became laws, which helps (ie minimum wadge laws, child labor laws) 
 
However Delta has always treated its employees better because of unions. 

...They wouldn't if unions went away...

^this^

 

[southwind]

Union Accomplishment:
Private Jet, Las Vegas meetings, Ruth's Chris Steakhouse and consultant fees are all paid with IAM Union member dues.  IAM is known for its over the top expenditures on the backs of its hard working members.  Union dues would be better spent fighting furloughs, cut backs and reductions in pay and pension.
Over 2 million on consultants!
$35,000 on steak houses and meetings at Las Vegas prestigious Bally's and Caesar Palace Casinos!
IAM's private Lear jet cost over 12 million new and more than 1.5 million a year to operate and maintain! 
 
http://iamexposed.org/jet.html
 

...And you balk at being referred to as anti-worker...

Meanwhile, at a certain ATL-based air carrier, the A-cards continue to roll in...

How would you know? According the the IAM's rep, on these boards, 700, no one's allowed to see these phantom cards!
 

Why dont you show us the # of employees that have been laidoff dues to inept management and how many airlines have gone out of business or filed chapter 11?

Why don't you tell us about the unionized workers at NW who were laid off, replaced and lost jobs during the BK and buy out!
 

your pretty foolish if you think someone like a Gurley wouldn't take that offer in a heart beat. He would be making millions off of things like autographs and jerseys (along with sponsorship and such) 
 

OK, since you've got it all figured out, since the football players will be making millions playing ball for college's, where does the money for other sports, at these colleges come from?

 

[Kev3188]

How would you know?
 

How can you not?

 

[topDawg]

 
 
OK, since you've got it all figured out, since the football players will be making millions playing ball for college's, where does the money for other sports, at these colleges come from?

that becomes the issue. Most colleges already operate Athletics at a loss. 
 
 
however, why is it a football players problem if the mens swimming team has money? Why should Todd Gurley have to take millions in losses to pay for the swim team? 

 

[700UW]

 

[WorldTraveler]

dawg,
did it occur to you that part of the reason that DL has increased pay as much as it has is in part because there is a shortage of pilots and mechanics that will grow? DL has the resources to be able to become the choice for new airline employees - or those that are coming from regional carriers?
Profit sharing is a great incentive for existing employees but the compensation advantage that DL has makes DL a lot more attractive for employees that are deciding which major airlines to work for.

the pilot shortage is going to really start biting within a few years. there will be US airlines that will lose regional carrier feed because those carriers don't have the pilots to fly them. They can try to throw mainline aircraft to replace small RJ flying but that only works if you restructure their networks.

The same is true of mechanics. Low pay and shrinking workforces will make other airlines far more vulnerable and you are absolutely right that airlines that outsource much of their maintenance will be most vulnerable because those mechanics will go to the majors where they can make the most money.

and the fact that UA labor is shrinking but keeping salaries up might help the few that are left but eventually UA will find it increasingly different to find mechanics to come in without seeing their cost go thru the roof.

AA has a lot of mechanics who are low paid and AA will try to hold on to them even though they will get a maintenance holiday with their new aircraft - but people aren't going to sit around at AA making low pay waiting for the market to self correct and their pay to eventually go up.

labor shortages are a lot bigger part of staffing and pay in the industry than a lot of people imagine.

 

[robbedagain]

did it EVER occur to you that PS is only based if the company makes a profit 3 out of 4 quarters?    Did it ever occur to you that just may be there will be a union to represent 2 work groups at the Al Mighty Wiget  and when that occurs at least that'd be 2 work groups in addition to pilots and dispatchers who would have a voice    a say  in things..   regardless what you say.     

 

[WorldTraveler]

yes, it has.


but has it ever occurred to you that legacy airlines can be profitable on a sustained basis?

WN has been profitable for many years and there employees have benefitted from profit sharing.

some people here seem to think that legacy airline employees carry some curse such that they can never work for a consistently profitable company and benefit from it.

I get that is YOUR legacy at US, but DL doesn't see it that way.

DL and its employees believe they can adapt to changes in the industry just like WN has done and still be profitable.

 

[robbedagain]

actually yes  US pre merger has been profitable and it has continued with the AA merger    
 
you think PS is like the big thing   guess what Sherlock  it aint   PS is a one time payout if and only if the company makes a profit for 3 of the 4 quarters   Personally  just me   Id rather have the raises in my pay every 2 weeks vs a 1 time payout   but that's just me.     US has and will continue (albeit AA) to do similar as to what DL is     Hell US put a stop to WN growth at PHL   WN cut back but then again this is DL and trying to get their folks Union

 

[WorldTraveler]

yes, I know US was profitable. Many of us have noted that US obtained those profits because of low salaries.

I am glad that you all are seeing salary increases but don't for a minute think you will make as much money in a monthly paycheck as you will if you have profit sharing. That is simply the nature of the way profit sharing works.

there is risk that the company won't deliver but for taking that risk, employees gain more than they would have otherwise.

it remains to be seen if AA will be consistently profitable at levels high enough for profit sharing to have paid out total compensation comparable to DL, UA, and WN but the chances are very high that AA will be profitable and thus AA employees will be missing out.

 

[Kev3188]

Meanwhile. WN agents just overwhelmingly ratified their T/A. Industry leading base pay, attendance bonuses, and more. I wonder what the EIG or FIT teams will get for DL employees? Oh wait, nevermind...
 
http://www.iamdl142.org/Bulletins/2014/SWA%20TA%20Highlights.pdf