Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.
- Thread starter 700UW
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Corn Field
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no, your responses are anti-market and anti-logic. You and other PRO-UNION people repeatedly trot out the anti-worker nonsense when someone outsmarts you in the argument.
It is completely possible to PRO-WORKER and against unions if they have failed to deliver a better deal.
You and dawg and others would rather throw out charges of anti-worker and pro-mgmt. instead of admit that the hard data from actual DL employees favors the largely non-union system for most non-pilot personnel.
If DL was pricing below what people were willing to work for, they would not be able to staff their operation. but that is clearly not happening. DL gets far more applicants than openings for every new job it creates. There are a whole lot of people who would love to work for DL and are qualified to do so.
Despite what you want to believe, DL pays market wages or better even for its frontline new hire personnel even while providing healthy premiums to average for its senior workforce.
Kev wants to stand very clear of his statements of the past but he got it precisely right... DL pays a premium and its employees have no desire to seek unions because it would be economically disadvantageous for them to do so.
we'd all like to improve parts of our job experience and total compensation package but DL has clearly found a way to meet the needs of the majority of its employees which is precisely why they do not seek a union.
Looking at ACTUAL data including the results of union votes at DL shows that.
It is completely possible to PRO-WORKER and against unions if they have failed to deliver a better deal.
You and dawg and others would rather throw out charges of anti-worker and pro-mgmt. instead of admit that the hard data from actual DL employees favors the largely non-union system for most non-pilot personnel.
If DL was pricing below what people were willing to work for, they would not be able to staff their operation. but that is clearly not happening. DL gets far more applicants than openings for every new job it creates. There are a whole lot of people who would love to work for DL and are qualified to do so.
Despite what you want to believe, DL pays market wages or better even for its frontline new hire personnel even while providing healthy premiums to average for its senior workforce.
Kev wants to stand very clear of his statements of the past but he got it precisely right... DL pays a premium and its employees have no desire to seek unions because it would be economically disadvantageous for them to do so.
we'd all like to improve parts of our job experience and total compensation package but DL has clearly found a way to meet the needs of the majority of its employees which is precisely why they do not seek a union.
Looking at ACTUAL data including the results of union votes at DL shows that.
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Corn Field
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I didn't say someone shouldn't quit trying to improve their job... you just happen to not accept that there are ways to do that other than thru a union... and the evidence shows that DL and its people have done more to improve the entire work package than at their peer airlines.
and I also didn't say that anyone should leave their employer... but you also fail to note that DL didn't CHANGE the basic structure of the RR program since those people were hired... it was a part-time, temporary, non-benefitted position from the beginning. Further, DL has maintained a very clear separation between permanent, FT employees and RRs.
Kev still refuses to answer the question if he would be willing to reduce his pay in order to provide more to RRs and there is a very good reason... because he won't and I don't blame him. I doubt seriously that you will find FT employees at DL that would give up part of their own salary to improve salaries and compensation for RRs. Kev has played by the rules and did what it took to become FT and at the top of the scale. many others have done the same thing.
Kevin and you are pandering to RRs solely in the hope of gaining something that is unattainable - removal of the basic components of the RR program while not touching FT employees.
You need only look at where WN's labor groups are in their negotiations. Stalled.
You and unionistas act as if you can force the company to give what it hasn't already given. WN mgmt. disagrees with your assessment that unions force pay and benefits higher.
When the well is dry, the company gives no more. and yet DL because of its industry leading operational performance and profits - which is where DL profit sharing is based - are moving faster and higher up the ladder than at any other airline.
Pro-worker is getting people what they can achieve, not what can be promised and then never delivered.
Union accountability is holding labor unions to the standard of comparing how well they have done compared to other options, in this case being non-union for DL employees.
it is not hard to see why you and the PRO-LABOR movement want to cast others as anti-worker when in fact the current option has been proven to be more pro-worker than the union alternative... if money has anything to do with the equation.
and I also didn't say that anyone should leave their employer... but you also fail to note that DL didn't CHANGE the basic structure of the RR program since those people were hired... it was a part-time, temporary, non-benefitted position from the beginning. Further, DL has maintained a very clear separation between permanent, FT employees and RRs.
Kev still refuses to answer the question if he would be willing to reduce his pay in order to provide more to RRs and there is a very good reason... because he won't and I don't blame him. I doubt seriously that you will find FT employees at DL that would give up part of their own salary to improve salaries and compensation for RRs. Kev has played by the rules and did what it took to become FT and at the top of the scale. many others have done the same thing.
Kevin and you are pandering to RRs solely in the hope of gaining something that is unattainable - removal of the basic components of the RR program while not touching FT employees.
You need only look at where WN's labor groups are in their negotiations. Stalled.
You and unionistas act as if you can force the company to give what it hasn't already given. WN mgmt. disagrees with your assessment that unions force pay and benefits higher.
When the well is dry, the company gives no more. and yet DL because of its industry leading operational performance and profits - which is where DL profit sharing is based - are moving faster and higher up the ladder than at any other airline.
Pro-worker is getting people what they can achieve, not what can be promised and then never delivered.
Union accountability is holding labor unions to the standard of comparing how well they have done compared to other options, in this case being non-union for DL employees.
it is not hard to see why you and the PRO-LABOR movement want to cast others as anti-worker when in fact the current option has been proven to be more pro-worker than the union alternative... if money has anything to do with the equation.
Kev3188
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If you're going to insist on name checking me, you could at least be accurate.
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Corn Field
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that is absolutely my intention Kev... plz correct what I have said if you don't agree.
and speaking of being accurate and correct, 700 himself has said that some airline employees, specifically leaders of other unions at AA, should leave the company.
http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/57435-3-twu-groups-had-enough/?p=1107137
I'm absolutely about accuracy, Kevin. If you don't agree with what I have said, please note it.
but please don't try to pretend that your accurate assessment of a few years ago is no longer valid even though it highlights that DL does know what its employees want and that DL has the economic advantage of giving what its employees want while taking the wind out of the labor union's sails.
quite frankly, you and 700 can post all day long and for years on end about what a union can offer but the decades old long reality is that DL has a strategy of paying its people above average compared to its peers and in listening to how to structure its compensation package in such a way that the majority of people are satisfied and unions have little to no power against larger pocketbooks that give the majority of people what they want.
and speaking of being accurate and correct, 700 himself has said that some airline employees, specifically leaders of other unions at AA, should leave the company.
http://www.airlineforums.com/topic/57435-3-twu-groups-had-enough/?p=1107137
I'm absolutely about accuracy, Kevin. If you don't agree with what I have said, please note it.
but please don't try to pretend that your accurate assessment of a few years ago is no longer valid even though it highlights that DL does know what its employees want and that DL has the economic advantage of giving what its employees want while taking the wind out of the labor union's sails.
quite frankly, you and 700 can post all day long and for years on end about what a union can offer but the decades old long reality is that DL has a strategy of paying its people above average compared to its peers and in listening to how to structure its compensation package in such a way that the majority of people are satisfied and unions have little to no power against larger pocketbooks that give the majority of people what they want.
You still don't get it, there is more to compensation just doesn't include pay.
Other airlines employees have better and less costly insurance.
Also other airlines have a defined benefit program, duty rigs, pay protections etc.....
You are clearly just focused on pay.
Other airlines employees have better and less costly insurance.
Also other airlines have a defined benefit program, duty rigs, pay protections etc.....
You are clearly just focused on pay.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
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I am not just focused on pay but you seem to think that DL people are going to give up pay to go get something that might be better for some but not for everyone. DL has job and work rule protections... you just don't seem to think they exist because they aren't on a document with a union signature on them.
and very few airline employees still have a DB pension program that is still their source of pension funding.
funn how you are so quick to talk about WN employees and how great their compensation package is but they NEVER had a DB pension program. and many of them have HUGE retiree investments via 401Ks. Although DL people have a choice where to place their profit sharing, many put large amounts of their PS payouts in their 401Ks and other retiree investment accounts and gain far more than what any current airline industry retiree program is providing.
DL employees are more than capable of deciding what is in their best interest.
I've never tried to portray that ANY compensation program including DL's can't be improved but DL employees simply do not see the faults with their compensation and work experience that you do and the evidence is the decades long track record of votes to NOT increase unionization at DL.
and very few airline employees still have a DB pension program that is still their source of pension funding.
funn how you are so quick to talk about WN employees and how great their compensation package is but they NEVER had a DB pension program. and many of them have HUGE retiree investments via 401Ks. Although DL people have a choice where to place their profit sharing, many put large amounts of their PS payouts in their 401Ks and other retiree investment accounts and gain far more than what any current airline industry retiree program is providing.
DL employees are more than capable of deciding what is in their best interest.
I've never tried to portray that ANY compensation program including DL's can't be improved but DL employees simply do not see the faults with their compensation and work experience that you do and the evidence is the decades long track record of votes to NOT increase unionization at DL.
robbedagain
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unlke DL OUR SCOPE CANNOT be changed over nite plus we are guaranteed pay raises thru the next few yrs thanks to our UNION Contract
Kev3188
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Give to get is often a myth used to create F.U.D.
DL could have a zero cost CBA today and I'd be willing to bet it'd pass with 80-85%...
DL could have a zero cost CBA today and I'd be willing to bet it'd pass with 80-85%...
Kev3188
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Not soon enough.southwind said:
Get thee to Camp Creek with a quickness and help those guys out!
Kev3188
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It's a long list.
Pick any article from a CBA you want. Whatever language you pick, DL workers don't have it...
Pick any article from a CBA you want. Whatever language you pick, DL workers don't have it...
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