Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[WorldTraveler]

you don't have to like it or not. You're not a DL employee.

and it's easy for you to try to put a price tag on a benefit that you will never achieve in the name of QOL issues which the vast majority of employees aren't willing to trade for any amount of money.

You and Kev and anyone else are welcome to try to argue how much each QOL issue that supposedly other carriers have but unionized carriers do not; we saw clearly with the IAM-UA CBA that the majority of employees were more than happy to take the cash the company was offering in order to get rid of the minority of employees. To try to argue that QOL issues are worth so much that they can't be traded is simply unionist propaganda that doesn't hold up in real life.

and despite the fact that Kev wants to believe otherwise, DL's QOL is simply not that bad in the eyes of the vast majority of DL employees. If it was, then DL employees would be running for the unions... in fact, the opposite has happened with 20K invalid union membership cards that sit on the dressers of PMNW people.

and AA/US only work each other's flights where one serves as the contractor to the other.

you can't argue against the fact that DL brings in 20% of its entire maintenance budget in MRO work from outside companies and then boast about the contracting that AA/US do for each other - which is really nothing more than undercutting the bargaining power of one group relative to the other.

 

[700UW]

Red herring once again.

This is about ACS.

50 stations and PMUS also hired laid off PMAA employees.

 

[Kev3188]

Kev does time served under the Ready Reserve system count toward that 11.5 years if someone transfers over to get off of it?

  

I don't think so, but would have to look.

Just double checked; You don't start over at the bottom, but it's not necessarily a lateral move, either.

IAM sure RR employees converting to FT would prefer to have all of their total service time count for pay purposes...

 

[robbedagain]

DL does not staff the entire ramp with M/L employees    BWI  LGA both come to mind...  Heck  the vast majority of the peeps at DL here are also on RR  and some of them quit there after 10 yrs on RR with almost no hope of going anywhere in DL and we actually took good amount of them on..   Theyve already said there is no comparison btwn the AA and DL   better benes etc to start

 

[WeAAsles]

DL does not staff the entire ramp with M/L employees    BWI  LGA both come to mind...  Heck  the vast majority of the peeps at DL here are also on RR  and some of them quit there after 10 yrs on RR with almost no hope of going anywhere in DL and we actually took good amount of them on..   Theyve already said there is no comparison btwn the AA and DL   better benes etc to start

Oh I would just LOVE to know exactly how many Ready Reserves by PERCENTAGE there are for the combined FSC classification. 20, 30, 40 percent? Let's see, AA......... ZERO!!!!!

 

[WorldTraveler]

you and the labor rabble rousers love to harp on the RR issue but the simple truth is that the RR program allows DL to pay its FT people more and provide more flexibility to them by having temporary people.

DL has used the program or something similar to it for decades. I started that way as did MOST PMDL new hires.

the actual people who vote know what the implications are.... when DOT data clearly shows that DL ACS personnel on average - including RR personnel - make more money than their peers at AA, UA, or US, then it is clear that the notion that bringing RR personnel up to FT or benefitted PT standards can be done at no cost or a cost that airlines will pay, it is simply foolish that is NOT born out in the real world where AA and UA have closed dozens of cities because the cost of paying benefits to everyone is far beyond what they are willing to pay to operate stations - and thus they are outsourced.

When DL people make more in reality - not just on paper with pay scales - far more than their peers at US - it is clear that this notion that higher pay for PT employees will result in more pay for everyone is just not real.

Red herring once again.

This is about ACS.

50 stations and PMUS also hired laid off PMAA employees.

and the only red herring is yours trying to argue that this ironclad 1 flight/day minimum to be mainline really means anything at all.

In fact, exactly as I said, US uses the IAM agreed upon measurement criteria as a tool which it can play with to AVOID having to make additional stations mainline staffed.

 

[Kev3188]

Oh I would just LOVE to know exactly how many Ready Reserves by PERCENTAGE there are for the combined FSC classification. 20, 30, 40 percent? Let's see, AA......... ZERO!!!!!

The stated goal is a 50/50 mix. If I had to guess, I would say it's currently somewhere around 35-40 for the ramp?

 

[WorldTraveler]

Whatever the stated goal is, the simple fact is that airline schedules are very "peaky" with great amounts of downtime and seasonality.

further, do RR employees get profit sharing, Kevin? Since DL's profit sharing program has succeeded so much in recent years whether RR employees get it or not is significant.

DL does the best job in the industry of adapting its resources to the peaks in the schedule when demand is there and pulling the schedule down and not having people standing around when it is not necessary to do so. RR people provide backup in the peak periods and at holidays to allow FT people off....

The system works and it is not new - it has existed at DL for years -which is precisely why those who are outside DL or those who have never adapted to the way DL does business never want to accept.

The alternative to not having an RR program is to not provide as much flexibility or pay that is as high for FT employees. The evidence of what actually happens at other carriers is clear, not only for other legacies but also for WN who does pay higher but where its rampers are locked in negotiations that have dragged on for a very long time with no movement. WN is NOT interested in increasing its costs as evidenced by no significant increases for its people.

 

[700UW]

The goal is to eliminated high paying and benefitted jobs, RR takes away full and part time benefitted jobs, DL doesn't use this to pay benefitted full and part time more they use it to eliminate real benfitted mainline jobs to cut costs.

Look at large stations like CLT, RDU and MIA, large DL cities that the ramp is outsourced.

 

[Kev3188]

Given that all hiring in ACS is now via the RR program, that's a reasonable conclusion to draw.

It's not a new program, but it's growth post merger has been exponential.

I might buy the earlier post addressing RRs being used to cover peaks in schedules...if that's what was actually happening. Anymore, they're being used as de facto part timers with consistent year-round schedules.

As for RDU/CLT/etc. Again, there's nothing telling them they have to staff them, so they won't.

In fact, not a single new point has opened (or reopened) since the merger...

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, Kevin,
it isn't a reasonable OR accurate conclusion at all.

It simply means that DL is using the RR program as the entry level position to ACS - which isn't much different than the way it has been at DL for years.

again, because NW or other carriers didn't do it that way doesn't mean that it hasn't worked.

there IS a market for part-time, non-benefitted work in the US.

It is precisely because of government policies and the union mindset that include things like the SEA $15/hr wage and the elimination of benefitted positions that the market itself is and will continue to figure out to meet cost pressures in business by finding solutions that meet ALL needs.

DL could easily slash the compensation package for FT permanent positions to align wiht levels at AA, UA, and US or put the brakes on any growth - which is what is happening at WN

DL is instead taking a position of having a much wider range of pay.

and if the utopian mindset of keeping everyone as closely paid to each other worked, then ALPA and pilot unions are the perfect example AGAINST that mindset. The difference in pay between entry level and topped out pilots is some of the widest in the labor force - and yet it is kept that way by unions at the insistence of those at the top of the pay scale.

The goal is to eliminated high paying and benefitted jobs, RR takes away full and part time benefitted jobs, DL doesn't use this to pay benefitted full and part time more they use it to eliminate real benfitted mainline jobs to cut costs.

Look at large stations like CLT, RDU and MIA, large DL cities that the ramp is outsourced.

there are equally large number of stations that could be highlighted IN any operation at an airline.

and DL does have far more above wing positions in many cities and provides the opportunity for employees to move between ACS areas as well as into Res and In-Flight, something that doesn't exist at other airlines to anywhere near the same degree.

What you and Kevin and others can't admit is that the system at DL works and it isn't as objectionable to the vast majority of people that actually get to vote as you want to believe it is.

Do I want to see more FT, benefitted positions thruout the US? you better believe I do.

But just as Kev has never been willing to say that he is willing to give up any of his own pay and benefits in order to bring up the pay and benefits of RRs or more junior workers (which surprises absolutely no one), the vast majority of DL's topped out, senior people would say the same thing.

Given that the alternative is to ship off work to contractors which other airlines including AA and UA have indeed done, the vast majority of people including Kev would rather keep the system that exists than risk losing his own job - again a perfectly rational response that flies in the face of the notion of union solidarity.

 

[700UW]

The CWA is at every mainline station above wing at PMUS.
 
Keep spreading misinformation.
 
And RR is not a stepping stone to benefited positions.
 
It is a tool to take away mainline full and part time benefited positions and keep costs low.
 
But you are a Leo Mullin clone, so take what mother Delta offers and be happy.
 
Truly clueless.

 

[WeAAsles]

This is a particularly dumb comment.

"there IS a market for part-time, non-benefitted work in the US."

There is NO market in the US where someone would not at least like to be offered benefits. I am OFFERED benefits which I CHOOSE to accept. If I did not choose to accept them then my take home compensation would be greater since that cost doesn't come out of my paycheck. As far as Part Time, absolutely there is a market and a preference for it by certain individuals. BUT I very much doubt that there is anyone who given the choice would state that they would prefer to remain at $14.00 per hour and not continue on up the pay progression. Unless of course the needs of the Company are more important to them then their own, lol.

At AA our PTers start at different rates depending on the city they hire in at. There is an airport minimum here in MIA so new hires are brought in at $11.00 per hour and progress from there (offered benefits too BTW) In DFW they are hiring in at the bottom of the scale $9.00 and progressing up from that. ALL though even if they CHOOSE to remain PT will eventually make the same BASE wage that I do. ALL!!!!

The RR program is only designed for one effect. To keep the costs for the company as low as possible. And as time wears on the company will continue to grow it's ranks until they can hopefully weed out any others who are making a much better rate (And benefits) The proof is in the swelling of those ranks.

Again 13 jobs locations. ALL Ready Reserve.

  https://delta.greatjob.net/jobs/JobListingAction.action?jobCategory=&PSUID=ec8afa46-a0ba-4aa4-b712-4c169faf03be
 

 

[WeAAsles]

BTW I have been going around the last few months and asking people what they would prefer. 7% above the top Delta rate ($26.55 for new AA rate) or would they prefer $24.82 and to have Profit Sharing? (Fleet) I explain first that the BASE rate will compound with all hours worked, IE: OT, extra hours, and contributions to our 5.5% 401k match. Then I explain that the PS is a one time per year payout that is not compounded, taxed at a higher rate (Some returned by tax refunds) and cannot be used to calculate income for any loans that they may apply for. I inform them that yes depending on the formula and the profits that the company makes there may be some years that the payout in PS could be more that the BASE wages, BUT that it is not guaranteed.

After I have finished explaining it I have not had one single person tell me that they would rather have the Profit Sharing over the wage increase. Not one single individual (Have had a few say why can't we get both though)

I'm not usually one who likes to go along with the crowd, but on this one I guess I'm walking right in the middle with them. 

 

[Kev3188]

You won't likely find anything for the for ACS that isn't RR. All hiring is done via the program.

BTW, the application process is outsourced to a (gasp) 3rd party...