Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[topDawg]

not for every member of a workgroup as AA is purported to be offering to its FAs.

they are overstaffed which is exactly where I said they would be esp. after making the winter seasonal int'l cancellations they are making.

if you think DL has a comparable offer out there, let us know.

So AA who makes they 2 month cancellations on like 6 routes becomes way over staffed
 
Delta who cuts half of its TATL network over the winter isn't over staffed though correct? 
 
Think before you post........
 

retirees aren't paid out of the same accounts as active employees and don't receive health care or other benefits from the same funds as active employees.

the only true commonality is that retirees pay the same thing for using pass benefits as active employees pay

and retirees do not retain their ability to return to the same position they once had; active AA FAs who work no hours for months are still required to return to work at some point.

retirees are not.

How is a company that is bringing in new FA's over staffed?
 
 
 

 
 
Exactly how much would you owe the company if they posted a loss?
 
Working at the company you work at, is also a "CHOICE"! 

well I can think of a pension, Tampa, Dallas, no more HMVs higher healthy care cost and a huge pay cut. (of and lay offs and if someone takes an ASM spot they lose the right to recall.) Lost vacation and sick time. 
 
Just a few highlights from the last time Delta lost a lot of money on a long period time. 
 

Wrong yet AGAIN have to work a total of 480 in a calendar year!!! Again I ask how many hrs can a DL fa's drop down to per month answers the question! They don't have to work a full sched!! Have you ever preached about hypocrites??

He can't answer because he does't know. All he can do is pick little bits out the contract that he thinks he knows about and some what talk about them. 
 
Or just start talking about profit sharing again. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

companies that are properly staffed don't give out the equivalent of 6 months paid leaves of absence which is EXACTLY what AA is doing with their 6 month self-chosen vacation for FAs.

the simple reason they are still hiring is that they want lower wage rates long-term by hiring new blood, aren't convinced that they can't operate the airline in 6 months with the same number of FAs that they have now, and think it is cheaper to pay 6 months worth of free bennies rather than shell out the $100K that UA is paying for early retirees - and if they only have to do it one time, they are probably right.

and dawg, AA is overstaffed because they have yet to realize they cannot fly the same amount of capacity on a year round basis and haven't figured out how to staff accordingly. Every other airline changes their capacity with the market far more than AA has done. I have shown that before. US pulled down its TATL scheduled far more than any other US carrier. AA just hasn't figured out how to do it and staff accordingly.

and they will carry the weight of the unneeded staffing on their budget until they figure it out.

the reason for the size of DL employees' profit sharing is because DL, like WN, is no longer willing to be profitable for a few months a year and they lose boatloads of money the rest of the year - which is what the legacy carriers have done for quite some time.

as for DL's use of ready reserve staffing, DOT data shows that DL has the highest average salary for its airport employee group (DOT data does not break down above and below wing or cargo) AND also has the highest total compensation for the group. DL's formula delivers more money to more people than any other airline's strategy.

the notion that the RR program destroys jobs and reduces salaries is simply not supported by real data.

 

[WeAAsles]

I'm the only one who's been posting whatever data I can find and so far it goes AGAINST your claim. The FA's are now sharing that data and the ground workers have it now as well.

Provide the data that supports your position otherwise your words are hollow and vacuous.

 

[WorldTraveler]

the "data" you posted shows that the AA APFA contract resulted in an 11% increase in the value of the contract per year compared to the year before.

problem is that DL's FAs will get an even higher percentage increase when you factor in their total profit sharing for 2014 (which was not known or announced by the time AA and APFA agreed to their contract) plus the pay raise DL already announced.



as for the airport ground staff data, it all comes from the Airline Data Project of MIT which uses DOT data to provide pages and pages of spreadsheets which are available on the internet.

DL spent more on airport ground staff than any other US airline in 2013 - over $1.3 BILLION, even when you combine salaries for AA and US on a pro forma basis for 2013.

in contrast, standalone AA's airport ground staff workgroup costs went down 15% from 2012 to 2013 and 20% from 2011 to 2013 and DL's average salary for that workgroup was higher in 2013.


so, it is blatantly false to say that the RR program at DL cuts jobs when DL spends more on the same workforce than any other US airline and DL employees in that workgroup have higher average salaries than its network peers.

 

[WeAAsles]

Post the data to substantiate your claim for baggage handlers. The MIT data does not break that formula down. If you cannot support your claim then I have no choice but to go by the sources I've found and the words of those who work and are directly affected under the RR system. They say that FT good pay and benefit jobs are being replaced by RR and I believe them.

As for FA'S the data supports that they are far behind their peers and does not and should not factor in PS. Ater the APFA TA is ratified they will be substantially below their peers and be sitting comfortably at the bottom.

The data that YOU led me to supports that position and is now being shared and used. YOU have assisted in the very initiative that you are fighting against.

 

[WorldTraveler]

there are pages of spread sheets. There is a mountain of data - far more than can be posted on this site.

the link to it is here.
http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/default.html

I have referenced the MIT airline data before and everyone here pretends it doesn't exist because it shows that DL's employee strategies do work in producing higher growth in compensation and more jobs for DL people than other people want to admit.

as for profit sharing, you can argue all you want that profit sharing is not stable on a long-term basis and should not be included and yet every other major airline in the US provides profit sharing EXCEPT new AA.

feel free to argue about profit sharing. Every other airline employee except those at AA will be benefitting from the more profitable and stable airline industry and AA employees will come up short again because AA's union leadership is still stuck in the early days of deregulation and doesn't believe that the airline industry has fundamentally changed in its ability to be profitable.

Of course Doug Parker wants you to believe it because profit sharing does come at a certain risk but given that DL employee profit sharing just since the NW merger is well over $2 BILLION dollars (1/3 of AA's entire annual employee expenses) and WN has paid out profit sharing for years, it is AA's employees who will lose.

keep clutching to the past.... AA employees will pay the price not only this year but for years to come.

 

[WeAAsles]

This was one response to posting this conversation elsewhere.

"Also you can tell your rat that DL just outsourced MEM and SLC cargo operations, and that many DL stations are outsourced to service companies. If RR "protected" jobs, this would not be true. The only thing that protects jobs is a contract. But you have to believe in your own worth to stand for one"

I stand by the words of those who are directly employed and affected by the changes and challenges that Delta is currently implementing which I believe is a systematic effort on the company's behalf to replace higher paid and benefited workers with a staff of low wage, non benefited turnover. 

Put a frog in a pot of boiling water and he will leap out quickly. Put a frog in a pot of cold water and turn up the heat and that same frog will boil to death. That is what I believe is Delta's ambition and goal.
 

 

[737823]

WeAA enjoy your fulltime $24/hr job but you can deny it all you want the industry is clearly going towards the DL model and outsourcing extensively. Do you really contrubute $24/hr (plus benefits) in productivity to AA? They could have 2-3 Eulen America employees in your place who would be more productuve without Union workrules. Guess you don't realize carriers like Alaska outsource even their hubs. AS IAM is under 600 employees only in the state of Alaska. AS IAM COPS isn't much better but at least they are in the hubs. The union couldn't even secure the work of the Boardroom Concierges who are considered to be management.

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

Josh,
DL has the largest airport staff budget in the US airline industry. They cannot be outsourcing more if they are spending the most.

are you using JP Morgan math again?

and weA,


and yet DL airport employees make more on average than their peers at AA, UA, or US; DL spends more on that workgroup than any other US airline; AA cut its airport staff budget by 15% because of BK cuts; and DL employees are seeing larger increases in compensation than at any other airline - at the very same time that AA's union leaders are convinced that AA can never be profitable on a sustained basis so they passed up profit sharing and a bigger paycheck to stay in the past.

AA's union strategies will be shown to be the biggest strategic blunder in the history of aviation for their willingness to walk away from profit sharing.

you can count on it.

 

[WeAAsles]

WeAA enjoy your fulltime $24/hr job but you can deny it all you want the industry is clearly going towards the DL model and outsourcing extensively. Do you really contrubute $24/hr (plus benefits) in productivity to AA? They could have 2-3 Eulen America employees in your place who would be more productuve without Union workrules. Guess you don't realize carriers like Alaska outsource even their hubs. AS IAM is under 600 employees only in the state of Alaska. AS IAM COPS isn't much better but at least they are in the hubs. The union couldn't even secure the work of the Boardroom Concierges who are considered to be management.

Josh

And that will be turned around as we here at the new AA have station staffing language in both of our current contracts. If that means standing firm and waiting to get a JCBA then so be it.

You and WT have opened my eyes to why it is important to stand firm and I thank you for that. 

 

[737823]

Your JCBA will kill stations like SAT, STL, and SJU along with smaller USAIR like BDL

Josh

 

[700UW]

Look dooshie is going to be Ms Cleo for Halloween.

 

[WeAAsles]

I'm not going to debate a circle that has no exit. You WT cannot provide the data I "specifically" asked for so again I will go by what I find and read and pass that along to help in the effort to rectify those issues.

Have a nice day.

 

[737823]

The DL model is brilliant similar to the UAW two tier agreement from 2009. Several GM plants have added second or third shifts (to absorb capacity lost from plant closings) and starting pay is $11.97/hr. Jobs are only being filled by referrals from currently employees and people are showing up in droves. Apparently $11.97/hr now passes as a good union job. I'm sure Walter Reuther is proud.

Josh

 

[737823]

Look dooshie is going to be Ms Cleo for Halloween.

Halloween is among the dumbest holidays ever. Good thing AA doesn't waste money decorating the gates like certain carriers do. But the new regime loves Halloween and there is a party at HDQ.

Josh