Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[WeAAsles]

Since we've already covered the chart on Airline Financials for FA's. Let's post this up there for any Fleet Service who want to view it.

Notice this line of the chart.

Popular Employer Salaries for Baggage Handler (Aviation/Airline)
Delta median is $23,078
American Airlines is $42,936

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Baggage_Handler_%28Aviation%2fAirline%29/Hourly_Rate

 

[WorldTraveler]

since you have forgotten what has been discussed about that site before, it is a site where users can input their own data. there is nothing scientific about it and nothing representative about the people who participate.

this site does use fully representative data with the caveat that there is no separate category for airline baggage personnel; they are grouped with other ground based personnel.

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/default.html

and it is still AVERAGE data which doesn't provide any sense of seniority or percentage of full-time/part-time/ready reserve etc personnel.

Kev has noted and I am certainly not arguing that DL uses ready reserves in many cities - but they also have retained their own personnel, including full time benefitted BW staff when other carriers have chosen to outsource and close stations and subcontract it out.

The UA situation highlights exactly what happens when unions don't provide the company with the flexibility to bring costs down - and the result is to close the station completely or to force the union people in that station to bid to keep their job against contractors.

just remember that AA is not as far along the merger process as UA is but AA still closed a number of cities to its own below wing personnel not that long ago, did they not?

 

[WeAAsles]

Thank you WT. Let's add some numbers then shall we.

Flight Attendants: Total compensation average pay and benefits.

2012: AA $64,343 Delta $60,145
2013: AA (BK) $64,595 Delta $64,791

What is that now going to be the difference after the AA APFA begins receiving the 193 Million per year improvement?

Fleet or categorized as other: Total compensation average pay and benefits.

2012 AA $69,061 Delta $62,381
2013 AA (BK) $56,289 Delta $56,432

What is going to be the difference once the Association secures a Joint CBA that will put us substantially above where we currently are as well?

Oh and you certainly gave me some great information to share on those pro Union FA Facebook pages.

Thanks.

 

[WeAAsles]

Wow and I also find it fascinating that even after going through BK the data provided says that we at AA are currently only making $143.00 per year less than our Delta counterparts who came out of BK in 2007. 

That's 7 years ago for those of you who are counting.

And it appears that Delta has trimmed almost $6000.00 per year in wage and benefits between the two years?

 

[WeAAsles]

So I posted the MIT data onto one of the pages and this was my response.

"What is missing her,is how many hours did the DL fa's have to work for that pay? Many DL fa's work well over 100 hours a month. Flight attendant compensation is a very complicated and complex issue. So much goes into that total compensation picture. I would love to see that comparison, though it probably doesn't exist."

It always seems to come back to those darn pernicious PERCENTAGES that no one can seem to tell me. The TRUE reality.

 

[WorldTraveler]

first of all, you are going to tell me what data you are using. I presume you are using the MIT data... and I am glad to see you do that.

As I noted above, averages tell nothing about who was affected how and where they were on the scale. It is merely an AVERAGE.

I still assert that DL dramatically reduced the seniority of its workforce by encouraging early outs. AA's workforce is still quite senior based on what many people have said; someone posted that the majority of AA FAs are topped out. maybe that will start to change with new hires.

the same is true for ramp and other areas.

what you and other union activists have a hard time communicating is the specific advantage that you supposedly can provide to a DL employee compared to what they have; that's where pay scales, work rules, etc start to come into play. For FAs, there is some attempt to standardize the comparison while it is much easier to do with ground employees.

Yes, it comes down to the percentages which you and no one else knows.... but ultimately it comes down to EACH employee making their own decision.

So far, DL employees do not believe that a union is a better answer than what they have now and the pay raises and announcement of early profit sharing only makes it more difficult for a union to convince someone at DL.

btw, I far prefer the dialogue here than what we have had in the past. 🙂

 

[WeAAsles]

WT:

Yes I used your MIT data and did the mathematical calculations. Although FA's are at this very moment tearing down those figures because of the many variables they are claiming. I love it because they are figuring it out for themselves.

Anyway you asked this question. "What you and other union activists have a hard time communicating is the specific advantage that you supposedly can provide to a DL employee compared to what they have?;"

I'll speak for myself unlike you who attempts to speak for a collective that you know nothing about really since you don't work with them.

Let's take out the financial aspects and get down to some other brass tacks.

I'm personally a glorified A Hole. I like to get on people's nerves. I bother people, get in their face and pester them with things they don't want to listen to or hear. I'm pushy, arrogant and extremely egotistical. I like to say at work what I want to say and when I want to say it. I'm non religious. I don't believe in any proposed spiritual book written because I know they're all written by man. I'm also hyperactive so I'm always flying at 90 MPH. I don't want to go to corporate parties and feel like I'm being forced to have to smile at some pinhead manager who doesn't even have a quarter of my intelligence. I don't want to shake their hands. Forced company rah rah events smack of Communism to me. I don't want to tote the company line or else be fearful that someone who doesn't like me will figure out how to get rid of me. I don't want to wear a company hat or tuck in my shirt and trim my beard. And I certainly don't want a company bumper sticker on my beautiful mustang Convertible.

So tell me? Do I sound like a good Delta candidate for employment to you?

19 years at AA where the Union I'm a part of gives me the liberty and freedom to be myself. PRICELESS!!!

 

[WorldTraveler]

interesting rant but the decision of DL employees, as it is in just about any democracy, is financial.

And nowhere have I ever said I speak for anyone.. .but as much as you and others want to argue otherwise, I have the bead on what motivates DL people.

I said five years ago that DL employees would remain non-union and that has been the case.

ZERO and ZERO.

peace

 

[WeAAsles]

Not a rant there man, reality. I have no shackles around my ankles.

ZERO and ZERO

Peace to you too.

 

[southwind]

Are you now purposefully trying to ignore this statement and the Airline Financials chart? BTW that chart only represnts the 2013 rates. When you factor in a full year of the APFA's secured new compensation package the difference between the two groups is going to be even far more stark. Delta FA's are being left behind and when ratified they will be at the BOTTOM against all their peers. 
 
"The APFA estimated that the value of those contracts is about $111 million below the existing market rate, including the Delta raises.
 
The $193 million figure includes $50 million as the anticipated value of profit-sharing, which American unions do not have.
 
"Doug Parker has been clear that he doesn't think profit-sharing gets the type of response [from employees] it needs," Glading said. "He didn't want it in the contract and he was willing to give us a premium so we would give up profit-sharing. We looked at it and determined we were talking about $50 million a year in value. It all went smoothly."
 
From the union's point of view, fixed permanent wage increases trump the possibility of share pricehttp://www.thestreet.com/story/1289...-thanks-to-delta.html?puc=yahoo&cm_ven=YAHOO# gains.

 
So, in a nutshell, union employees at AA, should be thanking DL, for the raise.........got it!

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

Or maybe with a paradigm shift, DL should be happy that AA got their T/A. DL had to add something to try and stop the union drive snowball.

 

[WeAAsles]

 
So, in a nutshell, union employees at AA, should be thanking DL, for the raise.........got it!

Hello McFly I really don't think that you're getting it???? WT gave me his site where he gets his numbers. According to that AA FA's only lagged Delta by $196.00 PER YEAR. And 700 also posted the chart from Airline Financials that show Delta actually lags AA. 

AA just went above and beyond by $193 MILLION DOLLARS per year in their contract.

Absolutely they should thank Delta for helping to get the extra 13 Million added into that total.

The debate now has become beyond ridiculous.

$193 MILLION!!!!!
$193 MILLION!!!!!
$193 MILLION!!!!!
$193 MILLION!!!!!
 

 

[WeAAsles]

Oh and I forgot, they rolled in the proposed value of the Profit Sharing to the contract. What did they quote that? Oh yea 50 Million. 

So that means the real value of their contract is now $143 MILLION give or take that lousy $196.00 above happy happy joy joy non union Delta FA's.

How much does it cost the company to throw those anti union forced meetings they do? They can have at least one a week now, LMFAO!!!!

 

[WeAAsles]

Or maybe with a paradigm shift, DL should be happy that AA got their T/A. DL had to add something to try and stop the union drive snowball.

I think they had better keep adding.

 

[700UW]