Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[Kev3188]

 
(THANK YOU IAM FOR FIGHTING TO KEEP FORTY RAMP STATIONS OPEN AND NOT LETTING NW MANAGEMENT FOLLOW DL's POLICY OF OUTSOURCING. Delta cut down to a grand total of 14 DL manned ramp stations).
 

+1

The majority of the ramp stations at DL are open today because the IAM negotiated on behalf of its members to keep them staffed with NW rampers following the NW bankruptcy proceedings.

Also +1
 

 

[WorldTraveler]

and yet the IAM represents precisely how many employees at DL?

DL has kept those stations open because it has more of a desire to keep its stations open using its own people than either AA or UA, Kev.

Even by your own statements, DL has the tools to operate its own stations open, regardless of where they came from, while AA and UA have closed stations, even with CBAs at those two DL competitors.

so, no, the IAM did nothing for DL. DL mgmt. has provided for its own people and kept those stations open.

You can't argue that DL employees have no CBA so DL could do whatever it wants and then give the IAM credit for keeping stations open.

The two are logically opposite.

the IAM might have helped NW but it ceased to get credit the minute it was decertified.

Further, DOT data completely validates that DL ACS employees are paid higher than their peers at AA and UA, not jut on paper but in reality.

And DL employees have enjoyed the fastest growth in compensation among ANY of large jet US airline employees.

the IAM gets ZERO credit for that accomplishment - because they were voted out by DL employees.

and specific to FAs, the reason is obvious: even before the merger, DL FAs made more, during, and after BK than their peers at NW.

 

[topDawg]

 
 
Yeah, for now.  Once DP gets the AA merger all settled in, he'll take the company in the red, and then take a trip down the US playbook, and put you guys thru the ringer twice...
Then see how much more you have then...

Lol. I love when people go down this road. 
 
Because that is what companies can do, turn profits and losses on like a light. Never mind DPs bosses would have a s**t fit if AA started posting losses right now...... 
 

"D E L T A  has more people at more stations......yada yada yada"
 
(THANK YOU IAM FOR FIGHTING TO KEEP FORTY RAMP STATIONS OPEN AND NOT LETTING NW MANAGEMENT FOLLOW DL's POLICY OF OUTSOURCING. Delta cut down to a grand total of 14 DL manned ramp stations).
 
The majority of the ramp stations at DL are open today because the IAM negotiated on behalf of its members to keep them staffed with NW rampers following the NW bankruptcy proceedings.
 
WT....selective memory at it's finest!

^this^
 

the yada, yada comes from those of you who keep mindlessly parroting that DL employees have no scope and DL can cut anything they want whenever they want.

I have not doubted that the IAM negotiated keeping stations open at NW and I am happy for those who have been able to build or maintain their lives because of that.

but you can't also argue that DL has no scope or can do what they want when they have chosen to honor what WN brought to the table instead of closing it, which is exactly what has happened at AA and UA, even with CBAs.

as for salary and compensation data from the data, you can yell about it all you want but it is the most accurate data that is available but it is an average and includes airport workgroups that at unionized airlines are usually separated.

but it is REAL data that reflects what actually happens and not what is in a CBA and that includes for FAs.

and when you add the salary and benefit information, DL and AA FAs are separated by just 1.5%. given that DL has a far lower seniority level, it is impossible to argue that AA FAs actually make more in real life


when you can bring REAL usage data and not what is in a CBA but shows nothing about reality, then the DOT data is the best there is.

First they have not honored what NW had at all. 
1) if they did Delta would have damn near double the amount of ramp stations in-house 
2) MEM/SLC cargo would be protected
3) no RRs much less the in-mass RRs that flowed post merger. 
 
and again you don't know what kind of JCBA AA will have. You love comparing their bankruptcy contract to Delta post BK, Post merger but when we compare apples to apples (AA BK to DL BK) you balk because it proves that you are full of poop. 
 
Compare apples to apples just once. 
 

and yet the IAM represents precisely how many employees at DL?

DL has kept those stations open because it has more of a desire to keep its stations open using its own people than either AA or UA, Kev.

Even by your own statements, DL has the tools to operate its own stations open, regardless of where they came from, while AA and UA have closed stations, even with CBAs at those two DL competitors.

so, no, the IAM did nothing for DL. DL mgmt. has provided for its own people and kept those stations open.

You can't argue that DL employees have no CBA so DL could do whatever it wants and then give the IAM credit for keeping stations open.

The two are logically opposite.

the IAM might have helped NW but it ceased to get credit the minute it was decertified.

Further, DOT data completely validates that DL ACS employees are paid higher than their peers at AA and UA, not jut on paper but in reality.

And DL employees have enjoyed the fastest growth in compensation among ANY of large jet US airline employees.

the IAM gets ZERO credit for that accomplishment - because they were voted out by DL employees.

and specific to FAs, the reason is obvious: even before the merger, DL FAs made more, during, and after BK than their peers at NW.

You can keep saying it but it will keep being wrong. I told you why Delta hasn't dumped the ramp yet(again) 
 

I can't wait too. As a stockholder, I'd love to see DL ACS and FAs give the company the vote that will cut DL's employee costs.

that is EXACTLY what unionization has done at other airlines... lower pay, more outsourcing.

IF DL people are stupid enough to do that, then they deserve what they vote for.

DALPA says hello again. (I know I know its different because it doesn't make your point. We can only look at cases where what you say is somewhat true) 
 

Notice how he left out WN Ramp, Cargo and Passenger Service?
 
$56,776 there is why, they make more than anyone, including DL and WN is unionized.

Wn doesn't count........cause.......well yeah. 
 

no, DL did not play NW vs. DL FAs.
 

Yes they did. They played every Delta employee vs NW employees. 
 
Even in TechOps. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

who said WN doesn't count? I didn't. We just all happen to know their salaries are at the top of the US industry - but they are also stagnant.

If WN's salaries are the gold standard, then why have the unions been unable to get to them either?

you can't argue that DL isn't there without implicating the unions at AA and UA for not getting there also.

further, the rate of increase in DL employee compensation has been higher than at any other airline - and DL has still been the fastest growing.

feel free to bring up cargo... now tell us how many cargo agents UA has... and why their unions could do nothing about it.

 

[topDawg]

who said WN doesn't count? I didn't. We just all happen to know their salaries are at the top of the US industry - but they are also stagnant.

If WN's salaries are the gold standard, then why have the unions been unable to get to them either?

you can't argue that DL isn't there without implicating the unions at AA and UA for not getting there also.

further, the rate of increase in DL employee compensation has been higher than at any other airline - and DL has still been the fastest growing.

feel free to bring up cargo... now tell us how many cargo agents UA has... and why their unions could do nothing about it.

ugh. I'd pay for you to learn how to understand and read the English language....
 
Again. You said Delta is honoring NWs scope. That is false. This has nothing to do with UA, AA, US, WN, NK, F9, HA, CZ, MU, JL, BA, IB, EK or any other airline in the world. You once again made a stupid statement that isn't remotely close to being true. You can't be a man and admit that it isn't true so you have to defect to what other are doing.  
 
As for your WN question, if you can't figure out why we haven't been able to get to their pay rates or those like FX and 5X then I honestly can't help you. I know you are smarter than that though. Ill give you a hint, take a look over airline history over the last ~15 years....then see if it clicks. (might want to take a look at labor laws and BK laws too) 

 

[WorldTraveler]

I know exactly why WN employees have done as well as they have and you are right that it has to do with BK and labor laws.

But it also has to do with the fact that WN had a much more junior workforce where it was possible to pay the TOS very well because there were always people coming in at the bottom.

now that DL is the one that is growing the most, the formula has been turned on its head and it is DL employees who are seeing the greatest increases in compensation while WN labor negotiations are stagnant.

Yes I know about the NW scope.... but DL could have torn that all up.... and you also can't negate that AA and UA's CBAs haven't stopped them from eroding even more of the scope their uniosn supposedly forced upon the company.

and guess what? WN is pushing for weakened scope too.

how about that?

 

[Airlinelifer]

Can someone tell me if DL has insourced any ramp work that wasn't already being performed by PMNW ramp crews?
 
Thanks

 

[topDawg]

Can someone tell me if DL has insourced any ramp work that wasn't already being performed by PMNW ramp crews?
 
Thanks

not that I know of
 

I know exactly why WN employees have done as well as they have and you are right that it has to do with BK and labor laws.

then if you know that why even ask that amazingly stupid question? Its a slap in the face to people like me, kev, glenn, meto etc. etc. who have been ass raped thanks to a BK judge. 
 
So why does WN make more right now? well they were profitable over the last 15 years. Delta wasn't. Simple as that. 
 

But it also has to do with the fact that WN had a much more junior workforce where it was possible to pay the TOS very well because there were always people coming in at the bottom.

I'm sure that helps. 
the main reason is they were profitable. They had a management team that didn't think like you think (piss on labor and lets have a huge pissing contest) They worked with the unions. 
 
Now they are understaffed and are playing games in negos. That is why their performance numbers have hit the s**ter. (at least according to a few friends at WN) 
As I have said before, people like you and leo and most of the management people don't care to figure out that pissing us (front line) off is not the way to get me to work harder. WN use to not think that way, management changed, got those egos in there and now its all about putting everyone in their place. Its a stupid way to run an airline........

now that DL is the one that is growing the most, the formula has been turned on its head and it is DL employees who are seeing the greatest increases in compensation while WN labor negotiations are stagnant.

And as i have told you, right now that is the case. 
but the chances are very small that I get to WN pay before they get a raise and a new CBA. 
 

Yes I know about the NW scope.... but DL could have torn that all up.... and you also can't negate that AA and UA's CBAs haven't stopped them from eroding even more of the scope their uniosn supposedly forced upon the company.

and this is getting so annoying. 
Okay United has the deal they have. It was a a stupid contract and I don't believe for a second anyone on here will say it was a good deal. However United is not a apples to apples comparison. The "I got mine" crowd was a lot larger than it normally is. That is what happens when you constantly beat your employees into the ground. 
 
But you keep throwing American now vs Delta now out there and its a BS comparison. American is working under a BK judge contract. they are where Delta was many years ago and when you compare post BK pre merger Delta to post BK pre merger AA then you see that Delta had it so so so much worse it wasn't funny. 
 
And again, "Yes I know about the NW scope.... but DL could have torn that all up.." If you can say that then you clearly don't know anything about NW scope. 
the ONLY part of the NW scope Delta some what goes by is the ramp stations in-house that NW had at the time of the merger. 
They don't use the flight minimums that NW agreed to
They don't use the cargo scope NW agreed to
and most importantly Delta has staffed its ramp station with a majority of non-benefited employees. Not only have they done this but they have rules or limits on this. Delta could, for example, make everyone at Kevs station RR or PT tomorrow. Not a damn think Kev could do other than hope they could get a vote for a union and get it changed. 
That isn't the case with any other carrier. 
 
So no. Delta is not really using the NW scope. They are keeping the NW ramp cities because 1) RR makes the costs at least closer to DGS 2) they know if they start dumping station, even if UA, AA and WN do it, they will have a union vote very quickly. They also know that they would have a good chance of having a scope that is comparable to that of US and what NW had vs Uniteds scope. So Delta keeps those stations because they know if they don't they are looking at a very real chance of having true limits put on them as well as ending up with double to triple the stations they have now. (It would be double to triple with NW scope word for word, I believe it would be slightly more with US's scope as well as having to do things like catering in-house at its hubs) 
 Delta isn't doing anyone favors, they just know that the chances are high they would have a lot more ML stations with a union. 
 
 
and before you even say it, United contract doesn't mean much in the above scenario. ...why you ask? Delta ramp have the trump card. RR program. 

and guess what? WN is pushing for weakened scope too.

how about that?

I have no idea what WN's scope is currently and what they are asking for in negos. I also don't know what the unions are asking for. 
So i wont really comment. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

and again you prove that you can't let go of the past and somehow expect that whatever happened in the past can be changed.

it cannot.

give it up.

DL is profitable TODAY and since emerging from BK has run a solid business within their financial means because they don't want to go thru what they went thru - for you or for anyone else.

and don't tell me what you or anyone else went thru in BK. I was there too.

the difference is that I figured out how to get my house in order, insulate DL's problems from my own, and build my life the way I wanted regardless of what DL does.

and as much as you want to lump everyone else into the same category, some of the people you listed did the same thing and continue to save at rates that are well above the US and DL averages.

and yes DL did bring work back to DL employees. stations that were PMNW staffed were reopened to DL people and all of the work is now done by DL employees (including PMNW). that DL work was not done by DL or NW employees before.

and even if you want to focus on below wing, DL has added maintenance stations and above wing customer service stations and positions.

and DL also has added hundreds of flights worth of work to DL people including at NYC and ATL and LAX where DL has grown esp. using various type of RJs at first but many of those flights are now being converted to mainline.

Your statement is patently incorrect that DL has not brought work back to DL employees.

and as with any other discussion about DL vs anyone else comparisons, the bottom line is that DL does more of its own work in more cities than AA or UA and DL people make more.

you can argue about line items here or there if you want but the bottom line totals are decidedly in DL's favor.

when you factor in that DL is growing its mainline operation and shrinking its regional operation while AA and UA aren't doing anywhere close to the same thing, and DL employees are absolutely gaining more than their peers at AA and UA.

today.

 

[BABABOOY]

http://www.usaamerger.com/2013/07/25/breaking-news-teamsters-card-forging-scheme-at-american-uncovered/
 
n a submission this week to the National Mediation Board in Washington, D.C., the Transport Workers Union (TWU) presented the sworn testimony of former Teamster organizers alleging that the Teamsters forged authorization cards of Mechanic and Related employees at American Airlines.
The testimony of the two witnesses alleged that instead of making assigned house call visits, a Teamster organizer sat in his car and forged authorization cards and then turned them in to supervisors along with false house call visitation records.
Witness testimony also alleged that the Teamsters Organizing Department learned of this practice when they compared multiple authorization cards with different signatures from the same AA employee and told Teamsters’ senior managers who removed an organizer from the AA campaign but otherwise ignored the issue.
 
- See more at: http://www.usaamerger.com/2013/07/25/breaking-news-teamsters-card-forging-scheme-at-american-uncovered/#sthash.g7mJN5Mm.dpuf

 

[BABABOOY]

http://wearedeltafa.com/moving_forward
 
Moving Forward








On another Facebook page I was surprised to see that my name was mentioned. It was questioning how someone like me could go from being pro-union, a union activist, and as someone heavily involved in the previous AFA campaign, to then make a 180 degree turn (or should I say a 360 degree turn) in the other direction.

The post even goes on to suggest that certain people in leadership must have “promised” me something.

So just to put it out there so everyone will know:
There were no back door promises to get me to switch from believing in representation to believing we are better off preserving our direct relationship
I started in 1997 with NWA, worked through the 1998 pilot strike, 9/11, and the Delta merger - most of that time on reserve. At that time the union mentality was what I knew, including disparaging the very company one worked for. I did fight hard for keeping our AFA representation and believed at the time it was the best way to preserve our work rules and negotiate higher pay and benefits.

After the loss of the AFA election I had to make a choice. I did not want to continue in misery and I decided that I would go forward with a positive attitude OR not at all and I would leave the industry altogether.

My positive attitude paid off. I found that once I put forth the effort to see Delta as a company that values its employees, to actually stop my complaining and give my leaders a chance, a whole new world opened up to me. The horrible things that AFA predicted would happen without a union never did. Instead:

• I started to feel valued as an employee and a member of the family
• I felt appreciated by my leaders both on the local and system level
• I have received increases in pay every year since both groups were integrated, incredible profit sharing and a host of other benefits including greater schedule flexibility.

My personal choice to choose to go forward as non-union is mine alone. I was not coxed or paid off or promised anything. 
This whole union fight saddens me. I have lost friends, good friends, and knowing the bitterness that some do carry it will be probably be a long time before some of those fences are mended.

All in all the biggest reason I cannot support a union is that from my personal experience we are better off without one. I hear that we have work rules that can be broken because they are not solidified in a legal document, but I have yet to have ANY of my written work rules violated. I heard we would have better pay with a contract, yet Delta always has lead the pack in terms of pay and benefits. Even after union NWA and non-union Delta both took bankruptcy concessions, Delta still came out on top and restored pay sooner.
There seems to be a belief that a union contract is a magic wand and we will receive everything we ask for. What people do not see is that those negotiations go to the benefit of both parties. The work group asks for an improvement and the company asks for a concession in return. So yes you MIGHT get an improvement in health care, but at what cost? You might get a better increase in pay but what work rule are you willing to give up in exchange?
My impression of our leaders is that Delta looks at our competitive set then bases pay and benefits on competition and what they truly can afford. A union will pretty much do the same thing and then charge you for it. If your goal is to dictate how Delta does business and you feel you have the right to dictate your pay and benefits, only to face some harsh reality and disappointment after YEARS of negotiations, than maybe Delta is not the right company for you. 
I know for myself I prefer to move forward without the help of IAM. 
Brad Greenhalgh
‪‎Be Different. Be Delta.

 

[WeAAsles]

and again you prove that you can't let go of the past and somehow expect that whatever happened in the past can be changed.

it cannot.

give it up.

DL is profitable TODAY and since emerging from BK has run a solid business within their financial means because they don't want to go thru what they went thru - for you or for anyone else.

and don't tell me what you or anyone else went thru in BK. I was there too.

the difference is that I figured out how to get my house in order, insulate DL's problems from my own, and build my life the way I wanted regardless of what DL does.

and as much as you want to lump everyone else into the same category, some of the people you listed did the same thing and continue to save at rates that are well above the US and DL averages.

and yes DL did bring work back to DL employees. stations that were PMNW staffed were reopened to DL people and all of the work is now done by DL employees (including PMNW). that DL work was not done by DL or NW employees before.

and even if you want to focus on below wing, DL has added maintenance stations and above wing customer service stations and positions.

and DL also has added hundreds of flights worth of work to DL people including at NYC and ATL and LAX where DL has grown esp. using various type of RJs at first but many of those flights are now being converted to mainline.

Your statement is patently incorrect that DL has not brought work back to DL employees.

and as with any other discussion about DL vs anyone else comparisons, the bottom line is that DL does more of its own work in more cities than AA or UA and DL people make more.

you can argue about line items here or there if you want but the bottom line totals are decidedly in DL's favor.

when you factor in that DL is growing its mainline operation and shrinking its regional operation while AA and UA aren't doing anywhere close to the same thing, and DL employees are absolutely gaining more than their peers at AA and UA.

today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eh8eb_ACLl8

 

[700UW]

http://www.usaamerger.com/2013/07/25/breaking-news-teamsters-card-forging-scheme-at-american-uncovered/
 
n a submission this week to the National Mediation Board in Washington, D.C., the Transport Workers Union (TWU) presented the sworn testimony of former Teamster organizers alleging that the Teamsters forged authorization cards of Mechanic and Related employees at American Airlines.
The testimony of the two witnesses alleged that instead of making assigned house call visits, a Teamster organizer sat in his car and forged authorization cards and then turned them in to supervisors along with false house call visitation records.
Witness testimony also alleged that the Teamsters Organizing Department learned of this practice when they compared multiple authorization cards with different signatures from the same AA employee and told Teamsters’ senior managers who removed an organizer from the AA campaign but otherwise ignored the issue.
 
- See more at: http://www.usaamerger.com/2013/07/25/breaking-news-teamsters-card-forging-scheme-at-american-uncovered/#sthash.g7mJN5Mm.dpuf

What does the IBT have to do with the IAM?

 

 

[WorldTraveler]

uh, they are a union?

but we know that the IAM would NEVER do anything like that.

they just partner with the TWU.

it's all about the Benjamin's, isn't it?

 

[700UW]

World Fraudster lies again.
 
The TWU has nothing to do with the IAM at DL and the FAs.
 
The IBT was never found guilty of fraudulent cards.

Try again Parrot.