Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[diamondcutter]

Iv always had the same rest as the pilots , we were always paired together! Fa's flew with the front end the entire trip. Pay no attention to world fraudster.

 

[WorldTraveler]

and YOU constitute the sum total of the FA population?

the fraud is that FAs NEED the same heavy handed gov't rules.

they don't. They need what provides the level of safety that matches THEIR risk profile.

FAs are not pilots just like clearly rampers aren't mechanics.

Rampers clearly have NO government or union restrictions.... safety clearly doesn't matter according to what some rampers are allowed to do.

and, yeah, lil ole non-union DL doesn't let you work one shift after another after another - and they didn't need a union to tell them it wasn't good idea.

and on longhaul flights, apparently AA still doesn't think it is worth the investment to get FAs off of the passenger cabin for their rest - but lil ole non-union DL does.

now tell me again who is interested in the most relaxed environment for FAs when they need it most but at the end of a transoceanic crossing that likely involves crossing multiple time zones?



"Srsly is an internet shorthand or slang for seriously. It is either written out of laziness, a complete inability to spell or type, or in a failed attempt to be amusing."

I'll take D. All of the above. with a double helping of C.

lulz: see C

 

[700UW]

You are truly clueless and anti-worker.
 
Here let me refute your latest lies World Fraudster:
 
No studies?

 
The Omnibus Appropriations for FY ’05 contained an appropriation for $200,000 directing the FAA to conduct a study of Flight Attendant fatigue. The FAA was to report back to Congress by June 1, 2005 with their findings.
Report language stated:
 
“The Committee is concerned about evidence that FAA minimum crew rest regulations may not allow adequate rest time for flight attendants. Especially since the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, the nation's flight attendants have been asked to assume a greater role in protecting the safety of air travelers during flight. Current flight attendant duty and rest rules state that flight attendants should have a minimum of 9 hours off duty, that may be reduced to 8 hours, if the following rest period is 10 hours. Although these rules have been in place for several years, they do not reflect the increased security responsibilities since 2001, and only recently have carriers begun scheduling attendants for less than 9 hours off. There is evidence that what was once occasional use of the ‘reduced rest’ flexibility is now becoming common practice at some carriers.”
 
In order to complete the study, representatives of the FAA from CAMI initiated an agreement with NASA Ames Research Center to perform an evaluation of the Flight Attendant fatigue issue. After more than a one-year delay in meeting the June 1, 2005 deadline, the FAA released the report in July 2007. The report contains a review of existing literature on the issue, an evaluation of Flight Attendant duty schedules, and a comparison of those schedules to the current regulations regarding rest concluded that Flight Attendants are “experiencing fatigue and tiredness and as such, is a salient issue warranting further evaluation.” The report recognizes fatigue as a problem, acknowledges that the very limited 6 - 8 month time frame the researchers were given by the FAA to conduct the study was not adequate, and clearly stated that a more meaningful, detailed study needed to be conducted, including surveys and research to gain a “complete understanding of the phenomenon/problem of Flight Attendant fatigue.”
 
In 2008, Congress directed CAMI to conduct a series of additional Flight Attendant fatigue studies in each of the 6 recommendation areas noted in the 2007 report. The studies were completed and the final reports began being issued in late 2009.
 
FAA Certified Flight Attendant participants in two of the studies included: Alaska, American, Continental, Delta, Northwest, United, and U.S. Airways from the Network carriers; and, AirTran, America West, Frontier, JetBlue, Southwest, and Spirit from the Low-Cost carriers. Participants from Regional carriers came from Air Wisconsin, American Eagle, Atlantic Southeast, Chautauqua, Colgan, Comair, ExpressJet, Horizon, Mesa, Mesaba, Piedmont, PSA, Republic, Shuttle America, and SkyWest.
Study requirements and recruitment materials were prepared in cooperation with CAMI officials, several airlines, and Flight Attendantlabor organizations. Organizations issued recruitment notices soliciting volunteers using websites, e-mail, and/or newsletter in February 2009 and February 2010 encouraging Flight Attendants to participate in the field study.

• These studies demonstrated that reaction time and performance diminishes with extreme fatigue, an unacceptable situation for safety-sensitive employees. Flight Attendants are on board to assist in case an aircraft emergency evacuation is necessary.
• In addition, they are inflight first responders who are trained to handle inflight fires, medical emergencies including CPR, emergency births and security problems. Any impact to reaction time or inability to function due to lack of adequate rest jeopardizes the traveling public and the entire crew.

While pilot regulations allow them to notify their carrier that they are too fatigued to fly, Flight Attendant rules are less clear. A Flight Attendant’s option is to call in sick and at some carriers as few as three absences due to illness in one year sets a Flight Attendant on the path for termination.
 
Both FAA and the CAMI have publically stated that Flight Attendant fatigue is a serious issue. Congress has spent millions of dollars to determine what we already know—namely that under current duty time and rest regulations, one too many Flight Attendants are not receiving adequate rest to perform FAA-mandated safety and security functions. New FAA rules addressing fatigue will incorporate these findings and fix this problem.
 
AFA is not seeking, nor does H.R. 3824 contain any language that would limit or cap Flight Attendant flying. It only calls for the creation of an Aviation Rulemaking Committee (ARC) to consider the recommendations of the CAMI studies and then propagate a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking to ensure Flight Attendants receive adequate rest.
 
“The Airline First Responder Workplace Fairness Act”, H.R. 3824 establishes a working group to incorporate findings from the already paid for seven (7) Congressional Flight Attendant fatigue studies to create a comprehensive rule providing for necessary additional rest rules for Flight Attendants.
 
Summary of the FAA Flight Attendant Fatigue Studies
 
Follow-on studies from the 2007 report resulted in six additional reports. A description of the six studies and an overview on each study follows.  
 
Part I: National Duty, Rest, and Fatigue Survey, Report date December 2009.
 
This survey report addressed 7 main operational factors that may contribute to Flight Attendant fatigue: work background, workload and duty time, sleep, health, fatigue, work environment, and general demographics. 
 
http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/oamtechreports/2000s/media/200924.pdf
 
Respondents to the survey were active Flight Attendants certificated by the FAA (DOT/FAA-issued government certificate) and listed in its Civil Aviation Registry. Using the Registry’s certification records, a random and representative sample was selected from each of the 30 operators included in this study. A total of 20,826 surveys were distributed.
 
Of those who responded, 9,180 (online = 4,039; paper = 5,141) met the criteria for inclusion (i.e., were employed as an active Flight Attendant with their current airline for at least a month and had flown within the previous bid period), resulting in a 44% adjusted response rate. Participants included Flight Attendants from each type of operation, network, low-cost and regional carriers.

• Data was collected from 9,180 Flight Attendant representing 30 operators.
• Responses indicated that Flight Attendant had experienced fatigue (84%) and the majority felt Flight Attendant fatigue was a safety risk.
• Two of the primary contributors to fatigue were scheduling and physiological requirements. 

Part II: Flight Attendant Work/Rest Patterns, Alertness, and Performance Assessment, Report date December 2010.
 
This study explored the physiological and psychological effects of fatigue, sleepiness, circadian factors and rest schedules on Flight Attendants’ ability to perform their duties over 3-4 week period of 202 flight attendants. 
 
http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/oamtechreports/2010s/media/201022.pdf
 
This report provided an overview of the field study results, focusing on objective measures of sleep patterns and neurocognitive performance (Psychomotor Vigilance Test, PVT) over a 3 to 4 week period in 202 U.S.-based Flight Attendants of all seniority levels working for network, low-cost, and regional carriers embarking on domestic and international flight operations.

• On average, Flight Attendant slept 6.3 hours on days off and 5.7 hours on workdays. Those working international operations slept less and less efficiently compared to domestic Flight Attendant. All Flight Attendant exhibited significant impairments during pre-work testing.
• This study supports the subjective data from Part I that noted that Flight Attendant felt that fatigue was a common problem and that it is a pervasive condition across the Flight Attendant community. In fact, it appears that chronic sleep restrictions and fatigue are considerably worse than the Flight Attendant perceptions noted in Part I. 

Part III,
 
when published, will look at validation of fatigue models for assessing how fatigued a Flight Attendant will become. This will help ensure that model predictions are consistent with data gathered from Flight Attendant s during the field operations be scheduled.

• This Part has yet to be published.

Part IV: Analysis of Incident Reports, Report date December 2009.
 
The FAA CAMI reviewed and analyzed the content from 2,628 reports found in the NASA ASRS database related to Flight Attendant fatigue in order to identify the frequency and conditions of fatigue noted in the reports.
 
 http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/oamtechreports/2000s/media/200925.pdf

•  The narratives in the reports mirror the findings in the other parts of this study in that Flight Attendant fatigue is a salient issue and there should be scheduling based on science and that in addition some type of training should be supplied to the Flight Attendant. 

Part V: A Comparative Study ofInternational Flight Attendant Fatigue Regulations and Collective Bargaining Agreements, Report date November 2009.
 
CAMI personnel obtained and analyzed 38 regulations and 13 collective bargaining agreements from around the world.
 
 http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/oamtechreports/2000s/media/200922.pdf

• When comparing U.S. maximum hours of work and minimum hours of rest with other countries the U.S. prescriptive rules were the least restrictive.
• The study recommends establishing a Flight Attendant fatigue work group of subject matter experts to evaluate the current regulations, 14 CFR 121.467 and 135.273, for possible revision. 

Part VI: Fatigue Countermeasure Training and Potential Benefits, Report date October 2009.
 
Education about the dangers of fatigue, causes of sleepiness, importance of sleep and proper sleep hygiene is a tool that can assist with mitigating fatigue if used with other risk mitigation tools like scheduling. 
 
http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/oamtechreports/2000s/media/200920.pdf

• CAMI personnel reviewed 50 training programs from diverse workgroups and identified the critical components of a fatigue countermeasures training program and the study recommended that airlines implement a training using some of the suggested components as well as integrating the training into a broader program that addresses fatigue risk management strategies. 
• The survey noted that 35% of Flight Attendant surveyed were provided some type of training or material on fatigue; however, almost 80% indicated the training did not help reduce or minimize fatigue.

 

 

[WorldTraveler]

there has indeed been more studies done on FA fatigue than I knew about... that is good.

what you have failed to provide is any evidence that DL's scheduling practices vs. what exist at any other airlines is the cause of fatigue.

You have jumped to the conclusion that because FAs don't have the same rest guidelines as pilots that FAs are fatigued and that is simply not accurate.

You also refuse to acknowledge that the greatest risk of fatigue comes on long haul flights which cross multiple time zones usually at night and there are abundant studies that prove that fatigue increases in that type of work environment not just at airlines but across industry.
DL has provided its FAs with the industry's best solution to crew rest on longhaul flights where fatigue on landing is the greatest risk

and you have also failed to answer the question as to why mechanics should get federal work limitations but other ground workers don't - and why unions which are supposedly so concerned about safety haven't answered those questios.

I am all about safety and reducing risk.

but all you have done with your response to FA fatigue issues - and we all get fatigued so no one is arguing that fatigue doesn't exist - is to try to hold up one element of what unions have done in their me-too clauses while denying other solutions which DL has done which likely have as much if not more impact on FA fatigue.

and when you try to argue that the union solution is right and the solution anyone else has is wrong, then we know for sure your focus is not safety first but union promotion - which is the heart of what you do here.

find the answer. Studies on pilot fatigue are very specific about what needs to be done to reduce fatigue.

meto is correct that 117 wasn't safety solution that targeted the right group with the right solutions but a political solution that impacts pilot earning potential and complicates airline oeprations - to the detriment of passengers far more than to their benefit.

find the solutions... just be humble enough to admit that those solutions might come from somewhere besides a union.

 

[700UW]

Spin away.
 

 
FAA Certified Flight Attendant participants in two of the studies included: Alaska, American, Continental, Delta, Northwest, United, and U.S. Airways from the Network carriers; and, AirTran, America West, Frontier, JetBlue, Southwest, and Spirit from the Low-Cost carriers. Participants from Regional carriers came from Air Wisconsin, American Eagle, Atlantic Southeast, Chautauqua, Colgan, Comair, ExpressJet, Horizon, Mesa, Mesaba, Piedmont, PSA, Republic, Shuttle America, and SkyWest.

 
I have come to no conclusion, the study proves that FAs are indeed fatigued, yet you spin away, change and deflect.
 
You stated there were no studies and no issues, proved you wrong once again.

 

[WorldTraveler]

nowhere did I say there were no issues. and I asked you to provide studies if you knew of them.

if you want this to be a discussion, then bring the information instead of trying to beat someone over the head every chance you get.

If you want to push a union, then don't be surprised if I challenge the factual basis of your union assumptions.

and again, we are all fatigued. You would have no problem finding that is common to the entire American workforce and lifestyle.

what you have yet to prove is what the exact sources of fatigue are and how to fix them.

Science involving pilots has been very scientific and pinpoint about identifying the source of fatigue and recommendations to fix it.

I have yet to see that type of science for FAs.

and I have also yet to see that any union has adopted any solution that has addressed the sources of fatigue or that DL's solution is not just as effective if not more so than what any union has suggested.

 

[southwind]

Spin away.
 

 
I have come to no conclusion, the study proves that FAs are indeed fatigued, yet you spin away, change and deflect.
 
You stated there were no studies and no issues, proved you wrong once again.

I believe anyone who work's for a living and actually does their job, gets fatigued now and then.
Probably something you "can't" relate to.

 

[700UW]

I posted the studies, you turned it into a union issue, not I.
 
I dont have to prove anything, I didnt conduct the study and the study shows actions that should be taken.
 
Comprehension problems this morning?
 
All FAs CBA has rest periods negotiated, DL doesnt, DL tells there FAs they are not protected under 117 which is true and have no hour restrictions on them.
 
Shall I post the ACARS sent to DL pilots about it?

 

[700UW]

I believe anyone who work's for a living and actually does their job, gets fatigued now and then.
 

Probably something you "can't" relate to.

Inhaling too much MPK?
 
Funny I worked 18 hours on Saturday, dont tell me about being tired and fatigued.
 
Glad to see you have to make it about me, are you obsessed?

 

[WorldTraveler]

spare us.

you are hung up over "negotiated" as if you think that a union can provide something better.

DL provides crew rest guidelines.

You refuse to acknowledge that DL's measures have validity or address the issue because they aren't "negotiated"

we get it. you are a union salesman, not a safety expert.

if you were interested in safety, you would acknowledge that you don't have all of the answers - no one does, and that the union solution might not be either complete or even accurately reflect or address FA fatigue issues.

When you have complete scientific evidence to back up your claims and to show that DL's actions aren't valid, then come back.

and don't whine about "you aren't in charge of telling me who can and cannot post on here"

 

[700UW]

See Guidelines arent rules.
 
Prove the studies I have posted wrong.

 

[700UW]

 

[diamondcutter]

Let's get off the crew rest world fraudster !! Why can't a delta trip pay the same amount of hours for both the Fa's and the pilots?

 

[WorldTraveler]

See Guidelines arent rules.
 
Prove the studies I have posted wrong.

sorry... that is not the way science works.

YOU have to prove your findings are right to be taken seriously in science.

but since this discussion isn't based on science but union sales, of course scientific processes aren't going to be used.



diamond,
Meto answered the question earlier. I tossed in my 2 cents worth.

you didn't like the answers... surprise, surprise

you also can't argue that DL employees have the highest average compensation of all US network carrier employees.

considering that DL has hired far more FAs over the past 5 years than AA, UA, or US, the increased amount of salary per employee is absolutely significant.

why can't you explain how DL employees including FAs make more than their peers at other airlines?

 

[700UW]

How is a study done by the FAA union controlled?
 
You are reaching again.