Grassroots Efforts at DL for ACS and FAs, no personal attacks.

[topDawg]

 

but you want to hold DL to a standard because of labor and mgmt. incompetence at those two airlines that will drag out the process far longer than 2 years.

No i want apples to apples comparisons. 
You want to just combine AA/US simply because it makes your point, however we could wake up tomorrow and the IAM/TWU and the company agree to contract that has lower outsourcing than Delta. 
 
From what i hear from my industry sources it is VERY possible that AA ends up outsourcing less than Delta. 
However I don't like to guess at the future like you do just to try to win a pissing contest.  
 

and you still can't hide behind WN because they do have merged workforces and still have a far higher rate of outsourcing than DL.

I'm not "hiding" behind anything. All i said about WN is they have been slowly bringing in work. You asked for an example I gave you one.
 
IF i worked at WN I would be pushing for more inhouse work just like I so at Delta. 
 

but you are just as willing to buy into their non-sense that they are special so shouldn't be compared to other airlines despite the fact that they really do fly the same planes, land at the same airports, and have to follow the same FAA guidelines as legacy airlines.

 If you can't tell the difference between a maintenance organization like Delta's vs WNs then I can't help you.
 
Delta has hard 80 years to build a maintenance organization, work with vendors and OEMs etc. etc. etc.
 
LCCs started in a very different environment and didn't have CAB money to build those organizations.   I hope and expect AMFA and WN to keep slowly but surely adding work though. 
 

Enhanced scope? Must be nice!

 Scope? Scope? 
Kev, WT Delta will take care of us. They have never ever ever never done employees wrong. 
 
Remember, if you are outsourced even when the company is making billions, its your fault and think about the profitsharing.....well you wont get but someone else will. 
 

The best track record for preserving scope at the legacies since 9/11 has come from DL, not any union.

 horse crap
Once again that isn't how this works. You don't get to say "well Delta cut to the bone well before BK thus they have treated people better" Delta didn't cut as much in BK because your people already did the cutting for them.
 
Oh and Delta closed plenty of ramp stations, cargo and GSE stations during the 2000s. 
hell they just closed three stations, one of which was a hub, in cargo and they are making billions. 
 

DL employees aren't interested in giving up pay and watching cities be closed which is exactly what has happened at AA/US and AA or would have to happen for DL's rate of pay to match that of AA/US and UA employees.

 
and Kev even some pilot leaders acknowledge that the company might be coming up with a pay increase plan for non-contract employees - perhaps to show the pilots what they gave up by rejecting their contract.

Uh Kev can correct me if I am wrong but it is my understanding that average pay at Delta is lower than AA or US. Thanks to 40-50% of the work force being RRs. 
 We have been getting a raise every year. 
 
It won't "show" the pilots anything. 
 

DL was a "first mover" in the wholesale elimination of line station staffing.
 
Why aren't the ramps at CLT/RDU/MIA staffed? Why, because there's nothing saying they have to, of course...

 With your old scope Delta would have to bring in a lot more than those three cities. 
 

 

I am fully aware of what DL did under 7.5, Kevin. I lived the nightmare.
but i got mine, so shut up and be happy. Even if you get outsourced remember, Delta da best

FIFY

 

Do I want to see DL mainline people in stations like MIA, CLT, and RDU? absolutely.

but I want the same thing for AA and UA in their comparable cities - some of which are DL hubs.

To argue that DL is deficient when there is a similar list at other airlines is to argue on a hypocritically apples to pears comparison, to use dawg's language.

I wish you and all DL people the best - all of them - just as I do AA or UA or WN people or those of any other airline.

 no you don't. You wish Delta the best. If we benefit cool, if we all got laid off tomorrow we could expect to come here and be told to be happy to live under a bridge.  
 

IAM confident DL employees can craft a representation model that works for them.

of course they could. Any union can. 
 
Unions can work with the company and protect its people. Butt hurt like WT has is what causes the negative relationships. Don't try to power trip and work with each other and all will be just fine.

 

[robbedagain]

Since u claim DL has best scope, plz tell the board exactly how many mainline flts before they get outsourced.

 

[topDawg]

Since u claim DL has best scope, plz tell the board exactly how many mainline flts before they get outsourced.

I know! I know! 
Pick me! pick me! 

 

[robbedagain]

nope not trying to say that bro...  just that WT thinks DL can do no wrong  yet no other airline can do no right...  🙄

 

[WorldTraveler]

Then, dawg, don't do an industry comparison until all of the mergers are completely done but also be just as quick to squash comparisons that others want to make.

You can't tell me that it is impossible to do an industry comparison and then pat robbed on the head because he wants to trash DL's scope. Play consistently by the same logic.

and NO ONE can predict what AA can do. and again, you refuse to admit that DL has a huge amount of insourcing that offsets half or more of the outsourcing DL does - but since it is in the category you want, it doesn't count.

and no, DL airport people make more than their peers at AA/US and UA. It's government data which we know like outsourcing and insourcing data is only useful if can be sliced and diced to show how badly DL does. Otherwise, let's resort to a piece of paper to brag how much scope is and how much pay someone makes even though the reality is clearly not what is on paper - either in terms of the number of stations or flights worked by DL employees or salary actually on the paycheck.

and no, MEM was no more of a hub for DL than BNA is for AA and about you back up your statement of making millions? Holy cow, clinging to the past by a shoestring

 

[topDawg]

Then, dawg, don't do an industry comparison until all of the mergers are completely done but also be just as quick to squash comparisons that others want to make.

when people don't make valid comparisons I try to call them out on it.
 
 

You can't tell me that it is impossible to do an industry comparison and then pat robbed on the head because he wants to trash DL's scope. Play consistently by the same logic.

errr Rob and 700 have constantly been talking about LUS scope.
LUS has a 1 flight minimum. Would you like a list of Delta stations that would be in-house if Delta had the same scope?  
 

and NO ONE can predict what AA can do. and again, you refuse to admit that DL has a huge amount of insourcing that offsets half or more of the outsourcing DL does - but since it is in the category you want, it doesn't count.

I constantly brag about the MRO, but as i have told you 100 times over, the vast amount of insourcing Delta does doesn't bring in jobs. Delta is going to do CFM56-7B overhauls in-house with or without the MRO. I have told you before, as much as I don't want to see it, if Delta was to completely quite the MRO game, but do 90-95% of its own work in-house Delta would have to add THOUSANDS of jobs.

having said that, I would prefer Delta take the LH model and do the vast majority of its work in-house and also a ton of MRO work. But thats just me.
 

and no, DL airport people make more than their peers at AA/US and UA. It's government data which we know like outsourcing and insourcing data is only useful if can be sliced and diced to show how badly DL does. Otherwise, let's resort to a piece of paper to brag how much scope is and how much pay someone makes even though the reality is clearly not what is on paper - either in terms of the number of stations or flights worked by DL employees or salary actually on the paycheck.

uh. Okay. So you are saying that the average cost of Delta ACS employees is the same as AA/UA? care to link that?

cause Delta constantly says that is the point of RR.
 

and no, MEM was no more of a hub for DL than BNA is for AA and about you back up your statement of making millions? Holy cow, clinging to the past by a shoestring

When did Salt Lake City lose all of its flights?


but here is the point kids, Those people that had to move, became more junior etc. etc. etc shut up and be happy about it. You're a real piece of work.

 

[WorldTraveler]

good morning, dawg,
I have simply noted that if you want to compare any point of the compensation/work rule model, then be willing to compare it all - and do it on the same basis.

You simply cannot pull out US' station scope without noting that DOT data shows that US ACS people make considerably less than their peers at DL. Further, US might have a 1 flight/day scope limit but guess what? US doesn't schedule one flight/day because they know what it will trigger. DL sends a mainline flight or two to a city because it makes good economic sense to do so - and DL still has far more cities and far more people working its own flights in those cities.

You want to try to cherrypick datapoints to validate your point - just as people are doing with the DAL issue and so much else that gets discussed on here without looking at the ENTIRE picture.

DL people consistently reject further unionization because a union cannot improve a single datapoint. it is a contract and the company and the union have to agree to all parts of it. DL and NW had IDENTICAL labor CASMs at the time of the merger and even though NW had more ramp cities, DL had more people on the ramp - which is a good reason why the representation votes have consistently been against further unionization.

You want to continue to harp on airframe outsourcing because that is your focus but fail like 700 to mention that US outsources a huge amount of the rest of its maintenance and doesn't bring MRO work to replace it - while DL does.

If you want an apples to apples comparison, then be willing to subject yourself to the same standard.

cherry picking a data point here or there - the flight threshold for US - doesn't come close to telling the whole story - and your peers at DL who vote note that full well.

and yes you are right that SLC cargo was just outsourced. I don't know the story and would like to know why but the numbers clearly don't work or DL would be outsourcing cargo in other cities if it were merely a matter of DL not liking cargo.

 

[700UW]

PMUS ramp will have their hourly wage at $24.39 an hour.

Now they have a defined benefit plan, DL doesn't.

PMUS has better insurance than DL, and pay less for it than DL employees.

PMUS ramp had a CBA, where everything has a monetary value.

And you are clueless, on the scope.

Shall I go on?

 

[WorldTraveler]

You will go on whether you are proven wrong or not - that's just the way you are wired.

meanwhile, you want to cherry pick bits and pieces but you aren't willing to look at the total picture which is verified by ample data.

DL people make more in real pay - not what is in a CBA - and they get to work in more locations with more people than exists at their legacy peers.

FACT.


at least for those who are willing to subject their arguments to fact and not emotion.

Workers don't get to negotiate parts of a contract and leave the rest to get the best of both worlds. DL people have rejected further unionization because the total package that DL mgmt. offers is better than what a union has negotiated at DL's most direct peers.

If that wasn't true, DL people would and should have voted in multiple unions - but they have not for very clear reasons.

 

[700UW]

I will go on whether I'm  proven wrong most - that's just the way I'm am wired.

meanwhile,I cherry pick bits and pieces but I dont  look at the total picture which is verified by ample data.

 

FIFY

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm not afraid of the big picture but you clearly are.

You cherry pick data points including about 1 flight thresholds that mean nothing in the big picture because US simply schedules around those limits while DL has its people in more cities that AA/US combined.

facts, not emotion.

that's how DL people make decisions and vote

 

[700UW]

US doesnt schedule less than one flight a day to avoid the CBA.
 
DL outsources more work on the ramp than US, DL even has vendors doing mainline work alongside of mainline employees.
 
If you cost out the CBA PMUS in total make more and receive more than DL.
 
Look at the pension and insurance alone.
 
And the IAM kept several stations open at US without any change in the CBA and US has added cities back in the past five years. can you say the same about DL?
 
How about those $12 an hour with no benefit employees at DL taking jobs away from FT and PT benefited positions?
 
40% and rising.

 

[Kev3188]

IAM confident that should another RIF happen, ACS employees will appreciate having a clear cut and transparent process within which to navigate.

 

[WorldTraveler]

US doesnt schedule less than one flight a day to avoid the CBA.
 

If you cost out the CBA PMUS in total make more and receive more than DL.

prove it...with numbers.

 

[700UW]

Don't have too, you made the claim, so you prove it.