IAM Fleet Service Thread

[dexter]

Yippeee!!!

 

[redeye]

I'm going to play devils advocate and ask you what legal obligation DP had to come back and resume negotiations, in terms of the Railway act. Is it against the RLA to stall negotiations if the initial contract is voted no, ESPECIALLY if they had asked for mediation? It just seems to me that once they have begun that process, they have to continue, not through "good faith" but because they should find themselves in legal trouble if they don't.
This is what the HELL we need our union to be doing, but they only seem to want to deal with the table-top issues, they lack depth and insight!!

If the question you are asking is: what legal obligation has DP to come back
and resume negotiations for Section 6 for the west contract?
My answer would be different and yet the same. RC has not shown the
inclination to pursue that option. Therefore DP still has no legal obligation
to resume Section 6 negotiations.

I'm a little confused as to which angle you are trying to spin.

Sorry,

 

[necigrad]

Was there any language in the TWU contract that prevented us from entering section 6 as my union leaders have told me.

The only thing preventing Section 6 for the WEST is the IAM. When a contract is ammendable (as the West contract was in 2005), the Union can announce their intention to renegotiate. The TWU did this, and in fact reached agreements on several sections of the contract. The Company refused to negotiate further upon announcing the merger under the belief that West might be rolled into East and the point being moot. I have no clue if they were truthful or not. I have since heard Canale say that West Section 6 is "pointless". Well, it is, for the East guys. There's also some suggestions that I've heard (and I have ZERO clue if it's correct) that once Section 6 is started it MUST FINISH. If this is true the IAM is gonna have a HUGE problem on their hands.

I got sidetracked slightly, but here's a direct quote:

This Agreement shall become effective upon the date of signing, and shall remain in full force and effect until June 12, 2005, and shall renew itself without change each June 12 thereafter unless written notice of intended change is served in accordance with Section 6, Title 1 of the Railway Labor Act, as ammended, by either party hereto at least sixty days prior to June 12, 2005, or any June 12 thereafter.

That is Section 28 "Duration" of the TWU CBA.

What that means for certain is that the TWU contract is ammendable. It may also mean that negotiations requre 60 days notice prior to any June 12, so basically any negotiations must be announced during any April or May. It also implies that it renews UNLESS that notice is served. It was served so I don't see any way the Company can ignore it or say "No thanks, we're not interested" without an impass being declared.

NOTE: Like damn near everyone else here I'm not a lawyer.

 

[Hey.. Chill Out]

Well what you guys say makes perfect sense, and I'm sure the IAM will have a huge mess on their hands soon enough. Lets make them use those union dues!

Thanks for your insight guys, I feel better about this.


What say you Tim Nelson?

 

[orioleman]

pj,
" Another thought, We retained the CIC language through 2 bk's. We got Profit sharing I think in BK2. Why would we give these back for a "cost neutral" agreement. All we are asking for is a few more of those so called "golden eggs" from the so called "golden goose". Anything less would be a slap in the face from our so called union and the company."

PJ very good point.. especially the P/S thing. IT DOES NOT COST THE COMPANY A DIME to give us P/S .. IF we profit they share

if we don't they don't share. its that simple.. love to see AL's price on that. ALL THE COMPANY WANTS IS TO TAKE OUR P/S and

line there pockets with it. IF they wanted to go buy an airplane or something like that it might be different.. Oh I'm sorry I'm

thinking of a WHOLE different AIRLINE there.....sorry

 

[Henderfuzz]

Bottom line, the company WANTS the CIC language gone, the company WANTS our profit sharing back, the company WANTS a 2 or 3 year extension. What are they willing to give us for those 3 things? IMO it better be at least $21 to $22 per hour, vacations and sick time back, doubletime, holiday's and holiday pay. Better health/dental benefits. NO OUTSOURCING. Just to start. The company WANTS and NEEDS these things from us. SO their "0" cost contract just got pricey. The question you have to ask yourself is what would you be willing to take, in the form of a T/A, from the company for these 3 items. I mentioned above a few of the things that I want to see in a T/A, that I would be willing to take. How about you?



Hey Oman,
Beat you to the top, as of 16:20 3/16/2008 :bleh: :bleh: :bleh:

If you think thats what they would agree to than keep dreaming 20 per hour to give those things away maybe. Outsourcing is going to be in anything the company comes back with.
Forget doubletime its gone forever. We already have some of the best health and dental, in case you didnt know that. So if this is the direction everyone is thinking than get ready for a long long wait.

 

[pjirish317]

If you think thats what they would agree to than keep dreaming 20 per hour to give those things away maybe. Outsourcing is going to be in anything the company comes back with.
Forget doubletime its gone forever. We already have some of the best health and dental, in case you didnt know that. So if this is the direction everyone is thinking than get ready for a long long wait.

Fuzz,
That may be the case. I was stating what I might vote for. If the next T/A looks anything like the Sept one, only with $20 per hour, it's still a no vote from me. This "cost neutral" stuff is IMO pure BS. The company WANTS these things from us. In fact they want Boss canoli to "give" it to them without having to "give" us something in return. Hence "cost neutral".
Well with the current NC there will be no "giving" back to the company. The concession stand should be closed and locked this time around. I believe that the CIC language should stay in. I believe that we should keep PS. It costs the company nothing to have these in our CBA. Why would we give those back for less than $21 to $22 per hr., vacations, sick time, 10 holidays and holiday pay, doubletime, DOH, 60 day rule eliminated with no restrictions, shift differential, and so in. We have what the company wants. We are in the Driver's seat now. Let's make them pay for it. We had to, it's about time that they did. BTW the health/dental costs more and you get less. Especially dental. So better health/dental.

 

[Henderfuzz]

Fuzz,
That may be the case. I was stating what I might vote for. If the next T/A looks anything like the Sept one, only with $20 per hour, it's still a no vote from me. This "cost neutral" stuff is IMO pure BS. The company WANTS these things from us. In fact they want Boss canoli to "give" it to them without having to "give" us something in return. Hence "cost neutral".
Well with the current NC there will be no "giving" back to the company. The concession stand should be closed and locked this time around. I believe that the CIC language should stay in. I believe that we should keep PS. It costs the company nothing to have these in our CBA. Why would we give those back for less than $21 to $22 per hr., vacations, sick time, 10 holidays and holiday pay, doubletime, DOH, 60 day rule eliminated with no restrictions, shift differential, ans so in. We have what the company wants. Let's make them pay for it. We had to, it's about time that they did. BTW the health/dental costs more and you get less. Especially dental. So better health/dental.

The consession stand closed mentallity will get us exactly nowhere. What do you not understand about economics of what we are now facing. 110 dollars plus or more for oil and still going up.
This is a cost the company cannot control. You can only raise fares so much.
We need to be happy with a fair payscale and be willing to deal with other items when we our able to go back when we have normal negociations in a new contract, even if thats 3 or 4 years from now.
The longer we sit here and play these silly games the more we loose in pay.
Dont get me wrong I dont want to give up anything either but if memory serves me the Sept T/A we were not giving up anything but the COC and the profit sharing which is not ever a guarentee especially now with it looking like we will not make money this year.
However I agree that the current NC will contiune to hold the hard line and it looks like we will still be here a year or more from now while all our groups pass us by with new payscales and some changes to there contracts, with maybe the exception of the pilot group.
So if you west guys are paying attention I say go for that DFR and get what you can if you can casue the IAM sure isnt going to get it for you.

 

[pjirish317]

Fuzz,
I was just stating what I would vote yes and no for respectivly. Everybody will make their own decision. Bottom line for me is, we have 3 things that the company wants really bad, let's make them pay for it. They keep talking about "consolidation", if this company wants to be a player in the so called "airline consolidation" come off the hip and give us a respectable offer. Now each persons opinion on respectable varies. Hopefully there will be a "happy medium". We'll see. For now lets just "agree thet we disagree" ok.

 

[Henderfuzz]

Fuzz,
I was just stating what I would vote yes and no for respectivly. Everybody will make their own decision. Bottom line for me is, we have 3 things that the company wants really bad, let's make them pay for it. They keep talking about "consolidation", if this company wants to be a player in the so called "airline consolidation" come off the hip and give us a respectable offer. Now each persons opinion on respectable varies. Hopefully there will be a "happy medium". We'll see. For now lets just "agree thet we disagree" ok.

I can agree with that. I really think one of the most important things to address is the 60day rule especially if there are stations that will be outsourced. As well as class 1 and 2 must be gone.
I personally dont see any airlines merging this year or early next year, I feel we are now past that happening. The election is to close now.
I would try to get the company to scale back the cities they seem to have on there hitlist.
I would think SAN, DEN,MCI, should not be on that list.

 

[necigrad]

The consession stand closed mentallity will get us exactly nowhere. What do you not understand about economics of what we are now facing. 110 dollars plus or more for oil and still going up.
This is a cost the company cannot control. You can only raise fares so much.

This is an intelligent comment. But I don't necessarily agree with it. Whatever offers the company give us isn't simply based on current economics. Yes oil is higher then it was. Oil has been going higher damn near daily for two years. If you honestly think the Company needs to reduce what's available to it's contract employees you're crazy. They knew damn well that oil would be higher when they offered the September TA. They can't use it as an excuse.

Second, the current economics have little bearing right now. Why? Simple. When the economics are better the Company isn't going to give raises. You need to get every last penny you can when in negotiations simply because the Company will NOT cough up when things are good. It's truly sad that the Company (and most companies, not just US) but it's the way it is.

 

[roabilly]

(Quote: Henderfuzz)

The consession stand closed mentallity will get us exactly nowhere. What do you not understand about economics of what we are now facing. 110 dollars plus or more for oil and still going up.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Fuzz...

I think, you will find in tha future, as gasoline prices continue tah rise… Airline bookings will actually increase!

This phenomenon will be due to the relative cost of gasoline vs. jet fuel…airfare prices…and demand.

In other words in tha future… if it cost’s you $100.00 tah fill yer SUV…
(Assuming ahh 20 gal. tank… with Gas @ $5.00 per gal.)

And... if that SUV gets 15 miles tah tha gallon… that $100.00 will take you 300 miles.

Assuming an average vacation trip of 500 miles (one way) tha total fuel cost is about $166.00.

Next…figure in tha cost of lodging… food…tha return trip… and hours on tha road.

Guess whut… Mr.‘n Ms. Average just spent around $600.00 in travel expenses tah journey by car…enduring over 20 hours ontha road!

Compare this… even with inflated round trip airfare costs…and about 2
hours intha air for travel time…

In tha future…it will be considered advantageous ‘n economically practical… tahh travel distances by air… as it will be for any mass transit... as opposed tah ground transportation.



P.S. Tha Concession Stand is closed...but my understandin' is, tha New Direction Fruit Stand is open fer buisness !

 

[Jester]

(Quote: Henderfuzz)

The consession stand closed mentallity will get us exactly nowhere. What do you not understand about economics of what we are now facing. 110 dollars plus or more for oil and still going up.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Fuzz...

I think, you will find in tha future, as gasoline prices continue tah rise… Airline bookings will actually increase!

This phenomenon will be due to the relative cost of gasoline vs. jet fuel…airfare prices…and demand.

In other words in tha future… if it cost’s you $100.00 tah fill yer SUV…
(Assuming ahh 20 gal. tank… with Gas @ $5.00 per gal.)

And... if that SUV gets 15 miles tah tha gallon… that $100.00 will take you 300 miles.

Assuming an average vacation trip of 500 miles (one way) tha total fuel cost is about $166.00.

Next…figure in tha cost of lodging… food…tha return trip… and hours on tha road.

Guess whut… Mr.‘n Ms. Average just spent around $600.00 in travel expenses tah journey by car…enduring over 20 hours ontha road!

Compare this… even with inflated round trip airfare costs…and about 2
hours intha air for travel time…

In tha future…it will be considered advantageous ‘n economically practical… tahh travel distances by air… as it will be for any mass transit... as opposed tah ground transportation.



P.S. Tha Concession Stand is closed...but my understandin' is, tha New Direction Fruit Stand is open fer buisness !

Roabilly,

Unless you plan to run your car on 'shine, it doesn't work that way. Very simply, the public will refuse to drive long distance for a vacation (if they even vacation) or refuse to fly. Even the business traveler at some point becomes too expensive to fly and thus, it isn't so easy as to pass along the increasing costs of fuel. Alternatives means in place of travel will be used instead. In an industry for which its highly operationally leveraged having half full planes would be a killer.

Does anyone know the price elasticity of demand for something as a homogenous commodity good like domestic airline tickets? If you don't then you better figure it out because the Tempe boys understand this all too well. Study up! Point Elasticity = (% change in Quantity) / (% change in Price).

By the way, while I find myself in a difficult position to defend Boss Canale, I like to think that the IAM has economists and financial advisors for which its members pay for their expert advice. Maybe they know something most in here are not considering? What say the New Directions Fruit Stand and who are their supporting cast of true expert advisors versus the typical fruit picking posters in here?

So Questions Jester.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Roabilly,

Unless you plan to run your car on 'shine, it doesn't work that way. Very simply, the public will refuse to drive long distance for a vacation (if they even vacation) or refuse to fly. Even the business traveler at some point becomes too expensive to fly and thus, it isn't so easy as to pass along the increasing costs of fuel. Alternatives means in place of travel will be used instead. In an industry for which its highly operationally leveraged having half full planes would be a killer.

Does anyone know the price elasticity of demand for something as a homogenous commodity good like domestic airline tickets? If you don't then you better figure it out because the Tempe boys understand this all too well. Study up! Point Elasticity = (% change in Quantity) / (% change in Price).

By the way, while I find myself in a difficult position to defend Boss Canale, I like to think that the IAM has economists and financial advisors for which its members pay for their expert advice. Maybe they know something most in here are not considering? What say the New Directions Fruit Stand and who are their supporting cast of true expert advisors versus the typical fruit picking posters in here?

So Questions Jester.

$20hr, extra benefits, extra scope. The context of the negotiations is merger. The company just offered the mechanics a 16% pay raise [wage and LP] and extra benefits even though oil is approaching $120 a barrell. 16% for east siders is well over $20hr.

regards,
Tim Nelson
IAM Local Chairman, 1487, Chicago

 

[GoldenRam94]

Some fuzzy math there Roabilly. H Ross Perot may have a job for you!
Seriously though, you only look at flying time, not the time spent driving to the airport, clearing security, and dealing with inevitable delays. Those who would drive will always drive or forego the trip, nobody is suddenly going to start flying.