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The Judge abrogated the CBA, and had no part of negotiations nor did he know what was in the final offer as we left CCY at like 4am after tweaking the final offer, yes even the final offer was negotiated after it was presented to us.

So once again your wrong.

I will lose over $1,500 a month when I start collecting, that is how much it was reduced.

Honestly, do you think Jester really cares about the facts? Division, diversion, and dissent are his motives. I’ve watched him post for years and the theme has never deviated!

Jester, don’t waste your time and their resources… as you will notice… everyone whom you are attempting to reach have sought out other forms of communication.

So "smoke jumps”

Brobilly
 
The Judge abrogated the CBA, and had no part of negotiations nor did he know what was in the final offer as we left CCY at like 4am after tweaking the final offer, yes even the final offer was negotiated after it was presented to us.

So once again your wrong.

I will lose over $1,500 a month when I start collecting, that is how much it was reduced.

Once again, I was right... Management did not dictate terms. Point of fact, NO ONE was given the option of minimum wage or hit the bricks, which according to you, would have been possible. Also rather curious that if the pension plan was terminated in 2005 and you retire at 65, your maximum monthly benefit would be $3,800 instead of your expected amount of $5,300? Therefore, after the bankruptcy, your benefit was reduced by 28%? Granted that is still a sizable amount, but most unsecured creditors were lucky to be paid pennies on the dollar of what was owed, and investors received NOTHING (just ask the Alabama state pension fund). As I said earlier, given the debtor was in bankruptcy, you made out like a rose.

So Reiterates Jester.
 
I dont know where you got your figure, when I retire at 50 its $500 a month, at 65 it will be $900, once again you have no idea of what your talking about.

And the company did dictate the terms, we fine tuned a few things, otherwise it wouldnt have passed.

Once again you have no clue of what your talking about.

I would have gotten over $2,000 a month at 50 if it wasnt terminated.

You should really give up while your behind.

Made out like a rose?

Lets see, having my pay cut from $23 to $13 is making out like a rose?

Having to transfer to keep a job is making out like a rose?

Losing my pension and no longer having medical upon retirement is making out like a rose?

46% of maintenance laid off, is making out like a rose?

Retirees losing their insurance and a reduced pension is making out like a rose?

Shall I continue?
 
I dont know where you got your figure, when I retire at 50 its $500 a month, at 65 it will be $900, once again you have no idea of what your talking about.

And the company did dictate the terms, we fine tuned a few things, otherwise it wouldnt have passed.

Once again you have no clue of what your talking about.

I would have gotten over $2,000 a month at 50 if it wasnt terminated.

You should really give up while your behind.

Made out like a rose?

Lets see, having my pay cut from $23 to $13 is making out like a rose?

Having to transfer to keep a job is making out like a rose?

Losing my pension and no longer having medical upon retirement is making out like a rose?

46% of maintenance laid off, is making out like a rose?

Retirees losing their insurance and a reduced pension is making out like a rose?

Shall I continue?

Learn the difference between YOU'RE and YOUR!
 
I dont know where you got your figure, when I retire at 50 its $500 a month, at 65 it will be $900, once again you have no idea of what your talking about.

700UW,

As you claimed to have lost $1,500/month in your pension, I figured that you had put a fair amount of service to the company, ergo, you would have been on the high end of the retirement benefits. As such, my information comes from the PBGC website sectioned, as titled, "PBGC Maximum Monthly Guarantees for Plans Terminating in 2005".
http://www.pbgc.gov/wr/benefits/guaranteed-benefits/maximum-guarantee.html#2005

The maximum only takes effect if one was entitled to have received more, thus if you lost $1,500/month, and the maximum was $3,800/month, by adding the two numbers together it totals to $5,300/month. That has been my understanding as to how the math works, and I checked it again before I made the prior post.

In fact, the PBGC website states the following:
"The overwhelming majority of the participants in plans taken over by the agency face no reduction in benefits due to the legal limits on coverage, PBGC research shows. The largest reductions occur in cases where participants earn pensions that 1) significantly exceed the maximum insurance benefit, or 2) provide generous early retirement subsidies."
http://www.pbgc.gov/news/press/releases/pr10-02.html

I don't know what to say.... maybe you need to make some phone calls?

So Recommends Jester.
 
You have no idea how it works, I have the letter from the PBGC gotten last month. I had 17 years at the time, it was terminated, you take the multiplier at the time of the termination, times it and thats what you get.

It was drastically reduced, welcome to the real world. Go ask the pilots who lost a million or two, how much they will collect.
 
how do you explain this...a guy i used to work with in another stat which was outsourced, he retired after 43 yrs with the company all he gets from the pbgc is 1300 a month--1300 a month! thats a huge huge loss because the company threw the pension over to the pbgc 700 is correct in what he has been saying alll along
 
how do you explain this...a guy i used to work with in another stat which was outsourced, he retired after 43 yrs with the company all he gets from the pbgc is 1300 a month--1300 a month! thats a huge huge loss because the company threw the pension over to the pbgc 700 is correct in what he has been saying alll along
And don’t forget the Social Security offset that the old Piedmont agents have unlike the rest of the employee groups
 
Jester has sank to all new low… defending the practice of Corporate America’s dumping of pension obligations onto the American Taxpayer only confirms my long held assertion that he is not on the side of the American Worker.


Hmmm… makes me wonder exactly who’s side he IS on…there are only two choices, and we just eliminated one!


So lifts the final shell…

Brobilly
 
john what is the ss offset that Piedmont had? I didnt even know that existed to be honest adn also Im guessing you mean the real Piedmont not the express carrier?
 
700UW,

I must ask, do you actually read what you post? If your assertion is that somehow abrogating any CBA through the bankruptcy process is a simple matter of a corporate whim, then you are grossly mistaken. You use collective bargain paragraphs and the Law as a drunken man uses a lamp-post for support – rather than illumination (with apologies to Andrew Lang). So with that in mind, let us review what Section 1113 says:

“(The Trustee)...may assume or reject a collective bargaining agreement only in accordance with the provisions of this section... that are necessary to permit the reorganization of the debtor and assures that all creditors, the debtor and all of the affected parties are treated fairly and equitably... the trustee shall meet, at reasonable times, with the authorized representative to confer in good faith in attempting to reach mutually satisfactory modifications of such agreement.”

As employees would be part of the creditors (especially in terms of pensions), and certainly, “affected parties”, they too would be “treated fairly and equitably” and “to confer in a good faith in attempting to reach mutually satisfactory modifications of such agreement.” Does this language strike you as particularly one-sided given there is an opportunity for compromise with Management in an agreement?

Furthermore,
“The court shall approve an application for rejection of a collective bargaining agreement only if the court finds that—
(1) the trustee has, prior to the hearing, made a proposal that fulfills the requirements of subsection ((1);
(2) the authorized representative of the employees has refused to accept such proposal without good cause; and
(3) the balance of the equities clearly favors rejection of such agreement.”


And the very narrowing defined conditions by which “The court shall approve an application for rejection of a collective bargaining agreement only if...” the trustee fulfills the requirements of aforementioned subsection, the employee group fails to show good cause to reject proposal or the Judges finds the agreement too one-sided. Does that strike you as something for which Management could dictate the terms of the CBA to you?

Finally,
“(f) No provision of this title shall be construed to permit a trustee to unilaterally terminate or alter any provisions of a collective bargaining agreement prior to compliance with the provisions of this section.”

So once again, the trustee (and certainly not Management either) cannot unilaterally terminate or alter any provisions of the collective bargaining agreement” without complying with those sections which I cited earlier. Once again, does Section 1113 strike you as a Law which allows Management to violate “any provision” without the affected labor groups input? If you have other sections of the Law which nullifies Section 1113, then I am more than willing to entertained by your continued delusions.

If your view of Section 1113 was correct, then why did Management fail to slash all FSAs down to minimum wage and cancel all healthcare insurance benefits while in bankruptcy? Are you suggesting that Management had a conscience? Are you suggesting that replacements were not available off the street? Or maybe you are just wrong?

When I managed business operations, if I was creditor in a bankruptcy, I was happy to get 50 cents on the dollar, and if I had to re-negotiate a contract, if I only had to get a 20% haircut, then I was happy that that too. Frankly, the East guys are spoiled, but if not for the restrictions to abrogate CBAs without lengthy considerations and the pension protections under ERISA and the PBGC, you would have been out of the street and without any pension in the future. Yes, you came out like a rose, albeit after a long prom night of excessiveness without a care in the world living under CAB protections, but a rose by any other name would smell (almost) as sweet.

Also let it be known that I take great umbrage in your statement that I lack the intellectual abilities to discuss this matter, especially from anyone whose occupation consisted of stocking, sorting, and inventorying parts for decades. One of the oddities of working with West was the number of very intelligent people working on the ramp part-time because it was a means to benefits instead of an attempt to make it their primary career. I have personally known lawyers, CPAs, nurses, Management PhD’s, economists, teachers, etc. who were “throwing bags” right along with me. Honestly, I doubt that your immediate co-workers, or especially you, achieved that level of formal academic success, and frankly, no one gives a crap about your week-long seminars of “Wackyhutt Collectivist College” (or whatever you call it) somewhere on a lake in New York state. I have forgotten more in what I learned in major universities than what you ever learned in an accredited college (assuming you were ever enrolled in one).

So Chastises Jester.

WOW! You really are so full of yourself aren't you?
 
Jester has sank to all new low… defending the practice of Corporate America’s dumping of pension obligations onto the American Taxpayer only confirms my long held assertion that he is not on the side of the American Worker.

Hmmm… makes me wonder exactly who’s side he IS on…there are only two choices, and we just eliminated one!

So lifts the final shell…

Brobilly

My Dear Mr. Roabilly,

Long time, no berate! Seriously, you need to cover-up as your paranoia is showing!

Now let's correct some unfair judgments you cast upon me. First, I am not defending the dumping of pensions upon the PBGC, as I consider the pensions to be a deferred wage, and outside of a company going to complete liquidation and shut-down, usually employees are paid entirely, so why not the fully amounts on pensions? Second, I believe it to be completely inexcusable to allow large unfunded pension obligations to exist, and better yet, allowed them to be masked through GAAP rules to mislead the public as to the extent of the problem. Third, I think that both US and UA while they were going through their bankruptcies should have been forced to honor their outstanding pension obligations to that point, even it meant liquidating the companies through the sales of assets. UA files bankruptcy with $2 billion in cash and near cash assets, but yet, stiffs employee groups and creates a huge debt on the back of taxpayer?

In addition, my views are based upon my fairly extensive experience and education in some matters, as they relate to the topics at hand. Whenever possible, I attempt to provide legtimate links supporting my position, and maybe helping some people in the process. When I provide a link from the official PBGC website which states that no US employee subject to the bankruptcy upon retiring at 65, and was entitled to earn $3,800/month or less from their pension would lose no money from their monthly benefit amount, then I tend to believe the official website. If those people do not wish to pursue the matter, then it isn't my money and I won't lose any sleep on the matter.

And finally, I didn't get invited to join your FSA online club? Well, as Groucho Marks once said, "I wouldn't belong to any club that would accept me as a member." Do you all get decoder rings and learn some secret handshakes?

So Remarks Jester.
 
john what is the ss offset that Piedmont had? I didnt even know that existed to be honest adn also Im guessing you mean the real Piedmont not the express carrier?
Your retirement (PBGC) is always reduce to stay the same amount when you start receive your SS. Any SS raises and payment come out of your PBGC
I’m talking PI 1977
 
My Dear Mr. Roabilly,

Long time, no berate! Seriously, you need to cover-up as your paranoia is showing!

And finally, I didn't get invited to join your FSA online club? Well, as Groucho Marks once said, "I wouldn't belong to any club that would accept me as a member." Do you all get decoder rings and learn some secret handshakes?

So Remarks Jester.

Well written Mr. Jester…

Some holes… although not as many as usual. Let me present you with two questions that are applicable to the conversation regarding the PBGC pensions.

1) Do you feel that corporations like US have used bankruptcy laws in a clever and devious way to undermine Organized Labor?

2) Do you feel that the current corporate bankruptcy laws are by design, through political lobbies and PAC money tilted in Corporate America’s favor?

Simple brief explanations are preferred. No need to write a thesis!

So queries…

Brobilly

P.S Your decoder ring is waiting… we just need your book number to release it.
 
Mr. Dearest Roabilly:

As brevity is the soul of wit, and often times I am accused of being witless, I shall attempt to keep it simple.

1) Do you feel that corporations like US have used bankruptcy laws in a clever and devious way to undermine Organized Labor?
Yes, but hardly absolute, as my lenghty discussion with 700UW will attest, and it does bring back a balance to the one-sidedness of contract negotiations by use of a rather crude and heavy instrument of bankruptcy re-organization.

2) Do you feel that the current corporate bankruptcy laws are by design, through political lobbies and PAC money tilted in Corporate America’s favor?
See Answer #1.

P.S Your decoder ring is waiting… we just need your book number to release it.
Could I use a dead guy's name provided he isn't already running for the GC position?

So Abbreviates Jester.
 
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