I think it is in everyones best interest to just "wait and see" on the first class product changes. Believe it or not in many cases, US West has a better product up front than US East. This is not always the case, but there are some differences. If you haven't flown US West, then you probably don't know anything about what may or may not be good or bad about it. LCC is about competing with Southwest, JetBlue, Airtran, more than it's competition with AA, DL, UA.
Inflight Service--Is the snack basket dead or dying?
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Art at ISP
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UW Cactus,
Your statement that US/HP thinks the competition is Southworst, JetBlue and Airtran indicates the crux of the problem in the first place. If that's the way they think, they are going to continue to devalue their product, and will lose most of their loyal higher yield customers. The competition IS AA, DL and UA, especially in the east--and let them NOT forget that.
I happen to agree with US1YFare on this one. There have been subtle changes to DM such as no rollover, reduced bonus miles, increased requirements, and NO enhancements. While the snack basket is trivial unto itself, it is symbolic of the attitude that Tempe obviously has to the loyal business traveler. Many of us have stayed loyal to US for 5 or more years, through ALL the ups and downs and crises which have occurred, 2 BK's and inept management. To make such changes and to consider removing snack baskets from East would be thumbing your nose at your best customers, and would likely result in a mass defection, which U can hardly afford.
One of the biggest problems as we have seen it both before and after the merger, is a lack of conisistency. It appears that the company doesn't know what it wants to be when it grows up. If they want to compete with Southworst, Jet Blue, etc., then let them come out and say it, eliminate Farce Class altogether and become a true LCC. A minute reduction in costs will cause yields to plummet as FF's move on to other airlines.
The fact is that PERCEPTION is REALITY to most, and the perception is that Tempe doesn't care about the core FF traveler. The people are the best in the industry, and are the main reason folks like me have stayed around, but if the snack baskets go, it says more about how they feel about us and makes me think they don't want our business...
On top of all this, they have NOT rationalized fares. The new reductions in east markets are worthless, because almost no business travelers fly with 3 weeks notice. Rationalization does not mean across the board reductions to levels below sustainability (Indy Air found that out the hard way). It means FAIR fares, even on unrestricted travel-which will actually attract business from competitors and increase yields. If the company wants to find a service level to emulate, especially at current price levels, they should look at United, who is ADDING amenities and serves full hot meals on china and glass on 2 hour flights (see Business1). There has to be a relationship between price and value, and right now there is precious little.
The thought of pulling snack baskets is somewhat trivial I agree, but symbolic of the greater problem. It will, I am afraid, be the straw that breaks the camel's back for many of us.
I sincerely hope that Tempe is reading this--because a foolish move like this COULD blow up in their faces.
My best to you all.....
Your statement that US/HP thinks the competition is Southworst, JetBlue and Airtran indicates the crux of the problem in the first place. If that's the way they think, they are going to continue to devalue their product, and will lose most of their loyal higher yield customers. The competition IS AA, DL and UA, especially in the east--and let them NOT forget that.
I happen to agree with US1YFare on this one. There have been subtle changes to DM such as no rollover, reduced bonus miles, increased requirements, and NO enhancements. While the snack basket is trivial unto itself, it is symbolic of the attitude that Tempe obviously has to the loyal business traveler. Many of us have stayed loyal to US for 5 or more years, through ALL the ups and downs and crises which have occurred, 2 BK's and inept management. To make such changes and to consider removing snack baskets from East would be thumbing your nose at your best customers, and would likely result in a mass defection, which U can hardly afford.
One of the biggest problems as we have seen it both before and after the merger, is a lack of conisistency. It appears that the company doesn't know what it wants to be when it grows up. If they want to compete with Southworst, Jet Blue, etc., then let them come out and say it, eliminate Farce Class altogether and become a true LCC. A minute reduction in costs will cause yields to plummet as FF's move on to other airlines.
The fact is that PERCEPTION is REALITY to most, and the perception is that Tempe doesn't care about the core FF traveler. The people are the best in the industry, and are the main reason folks like me have stayed around, but if the snack baskets go, it says more about how they feel about us and makes me think they don't want our business...
On top of all this, they have NOT rationalized fares. The new reductions in east markets are worthless, because almost no business travelers fly with 3 weeks notice. Rationalization does not mean across the board reductions to levels below sustainability (Indy Air found that out the hard way). It means FAIR fares, even on unrestricted travel-which will actually attract business from competitors and increase yields. If the company wants to find a service level to emulate, especially at current price levels, they should look at United, who is ADDING amenities and serves full hot meals on china and glass on 2 hour flights (see Business1). There has to be a relationship between price and value, and right now there is precious little.
The thought of pulling snack baskets is somewhat trivial I agree, but symbolic of the greater problem. It will, I am afraid, be the straw that breaks the camel's back for many of us.
I sincerely hope that Tempe is reading this--because a foolish move like this COULD blow up in their faces.
My best to you all.....
US1YFARE
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Very well articulated Art.
TO UWCACTUS: And, yes, I've flown HP metal about 8 times since the merger. I found the FA's friendly--no different than most of the FA's I find on US East. The striking difference was how the ground and flight crews worked really really well together. I found the food a bit better sometimes on HP, but no snack basket, and nowhere near what UA is offering. The glassware on US West is nice, but unnecessary in my opinion--i'll keep my plastic cup, I prefer to mix my own drink, and I want rollover. I don't like the layout of the FC cabin on US West--I prefer row 1 and without the closet it puts you right at the door. You seem to suggest that we will be wowed by HP's FC product--I guess you haven't flown UA between DEN and SAN or DEN and PHL. I actually said, wow, on those flights which were the same fare as US was offering.
Edited for clarification.
TO UWCACTUS: And, yes, I've flown HP metal about 8 times since the merger. I found the FA's friendly--no different than most of the FA's I find on US East. The striking difference was how the ground and flight crews worked really really well together. I found the food a bit better sometimes on HP, but no snack basket, and nowhere near what UA is offering. The glassware on US West is nice, but unnecessary in my opinion--i'll keep my plastic cup, I prefer to mix my own drink, and I want rollover. I don't like the layout of the FC cabin on US West--I prefer row 1 and without the closet it puts you right at the door. You seem to suggest that we will be wowed by HP's FC product--I guess you haven't flown UA between DEN and SAN or DEN and PHL. I actually said, wow, on those flights which were the same fare as US was offering.
Edited for clarification.
Art at ISP
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US1YFare,
I was indeed referring to the fact that UA's F product runs rings around US--east OR west. I have said "wow" on more than one occasion myself..PLUS have you tried PS? Amazing.
I just hope someone's listening.
Best,
Art
I was indeed referring to the fact that UA's F product runs rings around US--east OR west. I have said "wow" on more than one occasion myself..PLUS have you tried PS? Amazing.
I just hope someone's listening.
Best,
Art
Art,
Was that your FFOCUS card I saw under glass at the Gate 9/11 counter at PBI?
Jay
Art
Many good points (as usual), but I'll dispute you on this one. Part of the reason the legacies are in the trouble they are in is that they ignored a lttle, one-class local carrier as "not competing with what we offer." By the time they woke up to Southwest, it was taking a major chunk of domestic traffic and the price leader in many markets (not necessarily the cheapest -- but it sets the fare levels). And though you and Bob may not like it, WN gets a lot of full fare customers who value things like reliability, value-for-money fares, and load factors that aren't 100%
I know you are focussing on people who value the F cabin (people prepared to pay for it or who value building up the miles for it.) AirTran and others have shown that you can deliver a decent F product at much lower fares than the legacies were charging. UA and co may be the primary competition in LCC's markets for F customers now (at least in transcons), but JetBlue (with its EconomyPlus-type cabin) and AirTran are, I believe, going to be increasingly important players for the F-valuing passenger.
CO has cut back on the F seats in many of its cabins. UA's PS works in just 2 markets -- that's all. For the vast majority of US's mainline network, I don't think the legacy F class will be the main competition to U's F class 5 years from now.
Also -- Kelly has said WN is constantly reviewing its product. As WN's longer hauls increase, I would not be surprised if they make a very calculated move to change the product. Don't be confused by the lack of externally obvious change - WN excels at constantly eveluating and re-evaluating every element of what they do. Hence how they moved so quickly when they needed to (a) into transcons, (b) into Midway way back when © to snap up best bits of the ATA carcass and (d) into DEN. It could be 2 classes a la AirTran, it could be an upgarde to B6 standards, or something else, but it would be dangerous indeed for LCC to assume that WN is not aiming to be competitive for LCC's (and the other legacy's) F customers.
legacy-to-LCC
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this has become a west mantra.
we continue to wait, and see very, very little...
TheWatcher
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Art at ISP
Veteran
I am friendly with some folks at PBI, just unsure if it is my card or another FFOCUS member's.
Thanks for noticing though 🙂
Thanks for noticing though 🙂
I am in now way suggesting that you will be "wowed" by the US West product, quite the contrary. I still can't believe how much the snack basket comes up on this thread. Once again, let me remind you of the LCC concept and what US West has always been about. Its been an airline that competes with carriers of all levels, low fare, low cost, high fare, high cost, full service, minimal service. HP West has manged to find a "balance" of all of this. Yes, a low cost, low fare carrier (not always lowest fare) that offers first class "seating", unlike JetBlue, Southwest...but similar to UA, DL, CO, etc. They only do this in the most cost effective manner and not at the expense of the FF. US Airways...legacy, was much different in the past, no doubt..higher cost, more amenities. So it's no doubt that you were very accustomed to that in previous years, the a/c were configured with those same "high costs". The New US Airways must be smarter and able to deal with the current market and current fuel costs and more. The new US Airways has no intention of alienating previous US Airways frequent fliers and reducing service to a level that is unacceptable to the most valued customer. They will make changes that make sense while living up to their mission of getting the customer where they want to go, on time, without too much complication.
To suggest that they don't care about the FF is so untrue that I can't believe it is even being suggested on this thread. The FF is the most valuable customer and if you think that the new US Airways "doesn't care" than I'm afraid you are absolutely incorrect.
MarkMyWords
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UWCactus -
I think the point that they are trying to make is that the companies actions are speaking louder then their words. The constant stripping of service means that carriers like AirTran and Jetblue are offering MORE service then we are. If the rumors are true, then we are just taking away one more ammenity from F class and devaluing the product even more.
Using some of the examples on these discussion boards, if you had to fly PHL to LAX and had a choice of all the carriers available, would you spend the 1000.00 to fly US in F with little or no service, or would you spend the 500.00 to fly on AirTran and get the minimal service + better entertainment, or would you fly UA for 1000.00 and get a full F class service.
We can't be something for everyone. We are going to have to pick our niche and cater to it. We are either the Airtran / JetBlue that caters to the cost sensitve busimess traveler that prices their premium product to a level that equals the service offered, or we upgrade the service to a UAL / CO type product and charge the premium fare that we get now. We can't have it both ways. Unfortuantely it feels like we are sliding the service scale backwards and trying to still charge for a premium product.
The key to the whole thing is VALUE.
I think the point that they are trying to make is that the companies actions are speaking louder then their words. The constant stripping of service means that carriers like AirTran and Jetblue are offering MORE service then we are. If the rumors are true, then we are just taking away one more ammenity from F class and devaluing the product even more.
Using some of the examples on these discussion boards, if you had to fly PHL to LAX and had a choice of all the carriers available, would you spend the 1000.00 to fly US in F with little or no service, or would you spend the 500.00 to fly on AirTran and get the minimal service + better entertainment, or would you fly UA for 1000.00 and get a full F class service.
We can't be something for everyone. We are going to have to pick our niche and cater to it. We are either the Airtran / JetBlue that caters to the cost sensitve busimess traveler that prices their premium product to a level that equals the service offered, or we upgrade the service to a UAL / CO type product and charge the premium fare that we get now. We can't have it both ways. Unfortuantely it feels like we are sliding the service scale backwards and trying to still charge for a premium product.
The key to the whole thing is VALUE.
ringmaruf
Veteran
You know, I love how the HP people tell the US customers that HP is so low cost, and that we US customers have to get over our champagne and caviar. Then you respond that it's HP with the glassware, and not US. It's US that had completely cut snacks in coach, and HP that put them back. So it's really hard for me to see how HP runs the lowest cost operation imaginable, while US is apparently overrun with amenities.
To me, it sure seems from things like that that HP does have some amenities, like glassware, that aren't low-cost. I think most US preferreds would rather keep the snack basket and not have glassware, like we've been doing.
UWCactus, could you please enumerate some of the amenities that I get when flying US? I'm a Chairman's Preferred this year, will be a Gold Preferred next year, thankfully fly the vast majority of my flying on mainline and thus in First Class, and about 60% of my flying is going back and forth between PHL and PIT. Those PHL-PIT roundtrips used to cost me about $320 each; now, with WN in the market, I pay about $190 each. That's far from the lowest fare in the market, though; I buy up in order to get a ticket with flexibility. And even after taking out the taxes, my PHL-PIT fares yield over 28 cents per mile, and most of my other trips are even more expensive. I also have a US Airways Club membership that I paid $300 for. I'd really like to know what some of these high cost amenities are, as I'm apparently not flying smart--perhaps I need to ask in order to get them.
And I don't want to hear about what US might have offered in 1999, I want to hear about the high-cost amenities from this last year.
You know what, that's scary. Imagine if that's true--that the new management really does not mean to alienate the FFs. They might just be so completely clueless and out-of-touch with reality that they think all the changes are going over swell. Maybe they've deluded themselves into believing that their new FF program really is the best one out there.
They're not going to be "reducing service to a level that is unacceptable to the most valued customer"? Well who decides what's acceptable and what's not? If they decide something's acceptable, and the customer disagrees, well it's quite simple, the customer gets himself a new airline.
Jeez, I'm just on a roll tonight.
Sky high states: Hey Tempe, who's generating the most revenue for this company? Secondly, what is the competition doing to reduce amentities onboard?
Answer: KEEP THE SNACK BASKET, GET RID OF THE PILLOWS.
