July - US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

The other thing...you keep hiding behind the TA..yet both the company and usapa violate the TA at will.

TA calls for the Nic..no doubt about that.
TA calls for min block...company violates West min block.
TA specifically defines separate ops seniority and recall clauses...usapa and the company violate that when east pilots recalled West get furloughed from the West yet are allowed to transfer east and retain employment out of seniority.
TA stipulates the disposition of future aircraft, yet all 190's and the ATA 757s went east.
TA stipulates the makeup of the joint contract negotiating committee...how many West pilots on that committee??

Quit hiding behind the TA in order to violate the TA...you look as idiotic as the little lawyer explaining how to violate a union's DFR in order to fulfill the same DFR.

I look idiotic as you foam at the mouth?

-The TA does not call for the Nic as the T/A was done before we knew who the arbitrator would be. The Nic was the outcome of the T/A's called for process, but it is still in dispute whether it can be altered.
-Min block was grieved, won and the company is in compliance with min. block hours.
-757 and E190 flying was settled by agreed upon procedures and the west got IOUs, due when we get a JOINT CONTACT.
-The T/A, like any document, is subject to interpretation and the union and company have the right/responsibility to do that. Disagree? Sue 'em.
-Agree about the NAC, but if you really don't like it grieve it.

You didn't answer my question. Your pipe dream or someone else's? oops, didn't see your answer while I was responding. Your pipe dream. Got it.

 

[EastUS1]

The West will take immediate action at the district level, and it will scare the daylights out of the company.

Well...that "scare the daylights out of the company" would certainly be a first.

nic4us: "It ain't the judge the company fears, it is the jury." Umm..."fears"?...Really? Hmmm...let me see now:

1) "the company" is lusting after American and the many, mucho, mega millions the uppermost would pocket from the possible transaction, not to mention the enhancment of egos, etc that would attend to such a deal.
2) The mighty AOL and the "threat" of a small segment of employees initiating litigation presumably keeps them awake at night?...Or even shows up as any real 'threat" on their radar? Ummm...Ok then...No offence but, "shirley", you can't be serious.

 

[nic4us]

I look idiotic as you foam at the mouth?

-The TA does not call for the Nic as the T/A was done before we knew who the arbitrator would be. The Nic was the outcome of the T/A's called for process, but it is still in dispute whether it can be altered.
-Min block was grieved, won and the company is in compliance with min. block hours.
-757 and E190 flying was settled by agreed upon procedures and the west got IOUs, due when we get a JOINT CONTACT.
-The T/A, like any document, is subject to interpretation and the union and company have the right/responsibility to do that. Disagree? Sue 'em.
-Agree about the NAC, but if you really don't like it grieve it.

You didn't answer my question. Your pipe dream or someone else's? oops, didn't see your answer while I was responding. Your pipe dream. Got it.

I did answere your question....twice!!

I think if Silver rules in favor of the West, usapa will likely appeal, but this time I don't think the West will wait around for the 9th. I think, and this is only my opinion, that the West will fire the kill shot right then, to Silver.
​
​The bump and flush is just my prediction of a possible ask from the West side if Silver rules in our favor.
​
​The TA calls for the Nic...nobody is disputing whether it can be altered...it can..just get the West to go along with it and we will change to something else...did you read the 9th opinion? What is being disputed is whether a scab union can unilaterally alter a final and binding arbitration that took place amongst the membership it has a DFR owed. One little scab lawyer and some 2500 east scabs think the answere is yes...pretty much the rest of the planet realizes the answere is no.
​
​West min block was grieved, the West won, has never been paid and has no assurances the company is in compliance to this date.
​
​Can't sue over any disagreement in enforcement of the TA. Under the RLA have to follow the major/minor dispute clauses and file grievances through the union first. The same union that refuses to file those grievances, so, rather than sue over the DL issue, or the min block issue, or the out of seniority furlough issue, or block in/out issue, or the any of the other dozens of issues usapa has F the West over on....we will just sue, the instant Silver rules in our favor.

 

[cleardirect]

I don't usually like to make predictions, but I'm pretty confident in saying THAT will never happen. Remember, the transition agreement called for separate ops until a joint contract.

You mean the same T/A that says.

IV. Seniority List Integration
A. The seniority lists of America West pilots and US Airways pilots will be integrated in accordance with ALPA Merger Policy and submitted to the Airline Parties for acceptance. The Airline Parties will accept such integrated seniority list, including conditions and restrictions, if such list and the conditions and restrictions comply with the following criteria:

If the east pilots can ignore the T/A why can't the company?

It does not say we will use ALPA merger policy unless we change unions. It says the pilots will use. It says the parties, that would be east pilots, west pilots and the company will accept the result.

If you can ignore your obligation why would you expect someone else to live by theirs

 

[EastUS1]

....we will just sue,......

Yep. Nothing new to see there.

PS: Thanks for the small chuckles provided from "...pretty much the rest of the planet realizes..." 😉

 

[Pi brat]

You mean the same T/A that says.



If the east pilots can ignore the T/A why can't the company?

It does not say we will use ALPA merger policy unless we change unions. It says the pilots will use. It says the parties, that would be east pilots, west pilots and the company will accept the result.

If you can ignore your obligation why would you expect someone else to live by theirs

Actually, it doesn't say "will use" the list. Parker mentioned that in a crew news. But. I've always acknowledged that was the intent. Contracts are interpreted everyday.

So, you going along with nic's pipe dream?

 

[Pi brat]

I did answere your question....twice!!

I think if Silver rules in favor of the West, usapa will likely appeal, but this time I don't think the West will wait around for the 9th. I think, and this is only my opinion, that the West will fire the kill shot right then, to Silver.
​
​The bump and flush is just my prediction of a possible ask from the West side if Silver rules in our favor.
​
​The TA calls for the Nic...nobody is disputing whether it can be altered...it can..just get the West to go along with it and we will change to something else...did you read the 9th opinion? What is being disputed is whether a scab union can unilaterally alter a final and binding arbitration that took place amongst the membership it has a DFR owed. One little scab lawyer and some 2500 east scabs think the answere is yes...pretty much the rest of the planet realizes the answere is no.
​
​West min block was grieved, the West won, has never been paid and has no assurances the company is in compliance to this date.
​
​Can't sue over any disagreement in enforcement of the TA. Under the RLA have to follow the major/minor dispute clauses and file grievances through the union first. The same union that refuses to file those grievances, so, rather than sue over the DL issue, or the min block issue, or the out of seniority furlough issue, or block in/out issue, or the any of the other dozens of issues usapa has F the West over on....we will just sue, the instant Silver rules in our favor.

You will see that I corrected my post and acknowledged your answer. Calm down, don't want you going all fodase on us.

We'll see. I have your posts in my B.S. predictions file.

 

[doh nogo]

What was wrong? Posting a link? Give me a break.

No breaks. Both barrels, remember?

I was referring to you posting the link with zero explanation, then attacking 767jetz for responding.

I was referring to you begging someone to comment, and then laying false claims about them "meddling all the time" when in fact you asked for them.

And finally I'm referring to your false claims of a persons identity, whom you don't even know, and then being smacked down and proven wrong by several who actually know the person.

Not that I expect anything different from you. Too much ego to admit you are wrong. Nothing but denial and redirection. Just like noDOH4u said... nothing but a coward.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

.

The bump and flush is just my prediction of a possible ask from the West side if Silver rules in our favor.

I could see it being an ask, but I'd put the chances of that being ordered as .0000000000000000000000000000001%.

 

[nic4us]

Yep. Nothing new to see there.

PS: Thanks for the small chuckles provided from "...pretty much the rest of the planet realizes..." 😉

Name one legal opinion to date other than Seeham's that agrees that usapa can simply disregard an arbitrated award between members of the class it represents.

Just one...you will not find it, there is none...therefore...the rest of the planet pretty much.

 

[nic4us]

Actually, it doesn't say "will use" the list. Parker mentioned that in a crew news. But. I've always acknowledged that was the intent. Contracts are interpreted everyday.

So, you going along with nic's pipe dream?

Incorrect....The TA most certainly says the opposite.

That the company will not use the combined seniority list until completion of operational pilot integration.

It offers no other alternative seniority scheme, and therefore, as you acknowledge the intent is the company will use the Nic, which BTW is still to this very day the only system seniority list at LCC.

Just a reminder in case some game changer like a merger comes along.

 

[nic4us]

I could see it being an ask, but I'd put the chances of that being ordered as .0000000000000000000000000000001%.

Then they can face the other ask....$1.8 billion and a system bump and flush.

Like I said, it will not be ordered by a judge, the company will voluntarily comply.

 

[Pi brat]

Then they can face the other ask....$1.8 billion and a system bump and flush.

Like I said, it will not be ordered by a judge, the company will voluntarily comply.

nic I've finally figured you out. You're an eastie! That's why you drop the scab bomb all the time, to keep the east guys anger up. And ideas like the above give the west false hope. I don't know why I didn't see it all the time!

 

[Pi brat]

Incorrect....The TA most certainly says the opposite.

That the company will not use the combined seniority list until completion of operational pilot integration.

It offers no other alternative seniority scheme, and therefore, as you acknowledge the intent is the company will use the Nic, which BTW is still to this very day the only system seniority list at LCC.

Just a reminder in case some game changer like a merger comes along.

I don't remember reading it that way, but let's go with that. So you agree that the company cannot use a combined seniority list until completion of pilot integration, of which only a joint contract is left. So, what are the damages? Give me the exact date of a joint ratified contract absent any east pilot intervention, because that is when they would start, right?

 

[traderjake]

If you feel the need to vent send it to me in a PM and I will keep if confidential.

Thanks but not necessary, just pointing out luv's hypocrisy when he claims to be on the high road.