Keep the IAM

freedom

Veteran
Feb 15, 2006
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The TA offered us was for the most part reasonable , but there are three additions that we need in order to seal this deal .

1. Full sick pay and sick days

2. Full holiday pay and holidays

3 . Enhanced job security .



This is how close we are to sealing the deal , the company KNOWS that they met our price in terms of hourly wage . The reason the TA was voted down OVERWHEALMINGLY by the east was because the COC was up for sale and that bothered many of the East employee’s . Remember if the COC is won , we know for CERTAIN that the east WILL benefit from it in such terms as back pay , enhanced pay etc , as to the west , that’s undecided and has a bleak outlook . The TA vote didn’t go down the way it did just because everyone thought it sucked or others loved it , there were different personal interests involved , can you blame an east worker for wanting a back pay check of 20 K ? Can you blame a west worker for wanting desperately to get a new contract with decent pay ?

Somehow we seem to have forgotten all of this and gone off on some tangent about the IAM … Sure the IAM isn’t the greatest union , I’d say we have crappy leadership , but I WOULD say the contract presented to us was NEAR reasonable . To every west worker I say , do not let the greed of the East infect you , I don’t mean that as an insult to my east brothers , but as a very telling example of someone who is sick , yet thinks back to the days when they were strong and healthy … I’m sorry east brothers , but you will never again be as strong , as fast and as healthy as you were in the early days of this industry . The times have CHANGED , but your perceptions of what is reasonable have not . When people tell you that it’s VERY hard to negotiate with this company , that’s because it’s VERY hard to negotiate with this company . I imagine for the IAM negotiators it must have felt like bashing one’s head against a brick wall, time and time again . If we go with the IBEW , then it is the IBEW negotiators who will have the fun of bashing THEIR heads against that brick wall which is the company . How wonderful will you feel when the IBEW men come back and tell you that they haven’t been able to attain that much more than what the IAM was able to get ? I can hear the cries for new union now!


The final three components that we need in order to pass a new TA , are in my mind completely reasonable and we should be able to flesh it out of this company without going to world war 3 .If our union demands anything greater than these three items in scope then it is unlikely the company will budge in talks . That will mean a strike .

Ah section 6 you say! I’ve thought about it In my more fiery moments , I’d like nothing better than to walk out the door and flip my nose at this company .. But let us examine why the IAM may not have pressed for section 6 .. West brothers , West sisters , have you seen many green vests lately ? There sure are a lot of them aren’t there ? Not to say that they are the enemy , but I can say that their stake in our fight is miniscule . Anyone remember the protests that we had in front of HQ last year ? Man it sure was great that we brought out 800 people and made the news every time we protested ! That’s sarcasm for those of you who couldn’t tell . Mike mentioned that we only had 50% turnout in PHX even though the ballot box was AT the airport … I’m not going to bother trying to hide the obvious , it wasn’t because people didn’t think their vote wouldn’t count ( remember how poor we are and how we complain all the time about it ) it was because the OTHER 50 % didn’t care AT ALL …. Aka the scab force … No I hate to say it , but West is too weak to strike on it’s own . Not only that , but if we did strike in section six , the company would still force our East brothers and sisters to come into work and run the flights . There could be scenarios of having stations have half their work force walk out the door and having the other half continue to do their job … Think “FORCED†scabbing because that’s what it would be .

A strike should only be used when absolutely necessary , if for instance we could not achieve our reasonable goals listed above THEN it would be time for a strike .. The most important element of any strike is the SUCCESS of a strike .. Right now we are allied with MX , if we were to strike , they are honor bound to NOT cross the pick line (it’s in their and our contracts because we are BOTH IAM ) .. That’s TWO count them TWO work groups working together to take on this company !!! And some of you folks want to reduce our odds of winning in a potential strike by going it alone !!!! I hate to say it but MX is a powerful ace to hold in our pockets , if they don’t show for work THEY are nowhere near as easily replaced as we are .Some of you are going to say “oh they will cross “ etc etc …. no , I have the feeling they won’t , because how long have they been getting screwed by this company ? How pissed off are they deep down inside ? Not to mention that while we could definitely use them the same can be said of us . After what NW did to it’s MX , I have a feeling that MX everywhere was put on notice , if our MX strikes , I think it would be easier on all their minds knowing they have an ally too .

Do we really need to jump ship NOW when we are so close to getting a contract ? I mean really ?Are some of you hoping mosses is going to bust into corporate ,break heads and come back with a new WONDERFULL TA where your every wish is fulfilled ?Every time you think about the future and future contract negations ask yourself , is what I want “REASONABLE “ will the party on the other side of the table be able to see the merit in my proposal , or will they think I’m smoking crack ? I accepted all the facets of the previous TA because I was desperate , However if I had not been in such a position before and if the three points listed above HAD been in the TA . I think I would have voted yes on it . To those who say “we are NOT close!†I mean it in terms of relativity . Sure we have to wait until the COC is settled , if we lose we can move forwards , if it’s won , well then I think we in the west are screwed . Let’s say it’s lost , that means back to the table , brothers and sisters , would you rather send the same men back to the table TASKED with fleshing out a better contract who KNOW the other men on the other side of the table and how they think and will react , or would you rather send in men who have NO experience dealing with US Airways ? The IAM guys have airline number crunchers who can calculate just how much each addition to the contact is going to cost the company and vice versa . While the IBEW has number crunchers , they aren’t fleet service specific number crunchers so that right there means that it will take them more time and they will be less accurate in coming up with the numbers . I’m willing to bet that however long it would take the IAM returning to the table to get a new TA , it would take the IBEW twice as long because they will have to LEARN how US airways negotiates .

I know , now your going to cry that our leadership and negotiators are wretched and sell outs to the company!! Well remember what I just said , that former TA was NEAR reasonable , except that it lacked the three points I mentioned , also remember that even if it HAD the three points , it might have STILL been voted down by the east in pursuit of a 20 K back pay …. Don’t forget the human element … to those of you who cry the worst case scenario , which says our contract negotiators ARE sell outs , and say our president IS corrupt . Then why aren’t we in that TA right now ?? Please by all means correct me if I’m wrong , but since this is a TA and not open negotiations starting in 2009 , wouldn’t our evil union have been able to simply sign us into it or something even worse until the duration of the east’s current contract ?

The east HAS been lied to , time and time again , EACH and every time your union leaders have said to you “we will get it back !†or “we’re taking these cuts now for the short term so someday we can get it back “ let ME be HONEST with you , you will NOT get it back …. I’m quite sure that each and everyone of you knows in your hearts that the HEAYDAY of the airlines is over, much like the AUTO workers know that things will never be the same again … While airlines are enjoying RECORD profits , that’s only because of the CUTS they took in bankruptcy … If there hadn’t been any bankruptcies there wouldn’t be any record profits ! I said it before , and I’ll say it again , if EVERY union at us airways PUSHED for what they had before , we would once again be BANKRPUT . I’m not a company man , but I DO want to continue my carrier at this airlines with my co workers and friends . We must be fair and realistic not only with our selves but also this company . We’ve been treated quite poorly by us airways , there’s NO denying that , but we should not set our selves up for failure in our dealings with it .





In the end it is not the union leadership or negotiating teams sitting at the table that will get us what we want but the union MEMBERSHIP ….. It will not matter if it’s the IAM or the IBEW when we start to move like a boa and constrict this company , the effect will be the same . Let me simply point out that there is a fork in the road , one leading on a long journey , another the shorter route , it is up to each and everyone of you to decide which way we are going to go , and which path is the longer or shorter of the two .








Yours in solidarity in which ever union is on the property lol



Freedom

P.S , althou I recommend keeping the IAM because I want to get this done before I die of old age .
 
how about keeping the profit sharing too, the coc get rid of the 60 day rule enhanced benefits and fix the sick rules
 
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sorry robbed but i don't belive keeping profit sharing would be reasonable , as for the COC , it's being heard now , if it's won of course it can't and shouldn't be traded away , besides , there's NO way east members would let any award due them be traded away , i can say that because i wouldn't if in their shoes , as for the other things , yes the 60 days rule needs to go as well as having proper sick days .

It might be possible to get limited profit sharing , maybe 2% from the company , but i doubt it , thou you never know ...
 
Freedom

Man, you are Convincing and Honest..I definetely appreciate that! I just can't figure out why there's nothing similar to what ur waiting for being proposed. I feel I'm paid to get Screwed with and Paying to be Screwed with..........We'll never know why will we?
 
I would be most concerned about the Outsourcing language that would see many more small stations gone forever.
As posted above, the 60 day crap clause shoud be gone period for everyone who is furloughed, and for those who may be in the future.
I'm sure you know this line of crap was only thrusted upon the IAM represented fleet group.
 
without any indication that any one person is responding for our IAM, It will only be necessary to go to another source to explain this mess. the IBEW will be in PhX, but we know we have to wait for the Arbitor. The next round will be interesting after that.
 
sorry robbed but i don't belive keeping profit sharing would be reasonable , as for the COC , it's being heard now , if it's won of course it can't and shouldn't be traded away , besides , there's NO way east members would let any award due them be traded away , i can say that because i wouldn't if in their shoes , as for the other things , yes the 60 days rule needs to go as well as having proper sick days .

It might be possible to get limited profit sharing , maybe 2% from the company , but i doubt it , thou you never know ...


The IAM stated that the TA was worth 21 million. The breadcrumb profit sharing last year was worth $5,386,540.96. If we did that (you see what it is this year)
till 2012, that puts the profit sharing portion of the TA worth around 38 million+. Everything else would be a give away. And you would never see another profit sharing check past 2012 so there is no leverage at renegotiation time.
 
The TA offered us was for the most part reasonable , but there are three additions that we need in order to seal this deal .

1. Full sick pay and sick days

2. Full holiday pay and holidays

3 . Enhanced job security .
This is how close we are to sealing the deal , the company KNOWS that they met our price in terms of hourly wage . The reason the TA was voted down OVERWHEALMINGLY by the east was because the COC was up for sale and that bothered many of the East employee’s . Remember if the COC is won , we know for CERTAIN that the east WILL benefit from it in such terms as back pay , enhanced pay etc , as to the west , that’s undecided and has a bleak outlook . The TA vote didn’t go down the way it did just because everyone thought it sucked or others loved it , there were different personal interests involved , can you blame an east worker for wanting a back pay check of 20 K ? Can you blame a west worker for wanting desperately to get a new contract with decent pay ?

Somehow we seem to have forgotten all of this and gone off on some tangent about the IAM … Sure the IAM isn’t the greatest union , I’d say we have crappy leadership , but I WOULD say the contract presented to us was NEAR reasonable . To every west worker I say , do not let the greed of the East infect you , I don’t mean that as an insult to my east brothers , but as a very telling example of someone who is sick , yet thinks back to the days when they were strong and healthy … I’m sorry east brothers , but you will never again be as strong , as fast and as healthy as you were in the early days of this industry . The times have CHANGED , but your perceptions of what is reasonable have not . When people tell you that it’s VERY hard to negotiate with this company , that’s because it’s VERY hard to negotiate with this company . I imagine for the IAM negotiators it must have felt like bashing one’s head against a brick wall, time and time again . If we go with the IBEW , then it is the IBEW negotiators who will have the fun of bashing THEIR heads against that brick wall which is the company . How wonderful will you feel when the IBEW men come back and tell you that they haven’t been able to attain that much more than what the IAM was able to get ? I can hear the cries for new union now!
The final three components that we need in order to pass a new TA , are in my mind completely reasonable and we should be able to flesh it out of this company without going to world war 3 .If our union demands anything greater than these three items in scope then it is unlikely the company will budge in talks . That will mean a strike .

Ah section 6 you say! I’ve thought about it In my more fiery moments , I’d like nothing better than to walk out the door and flip my nose at this company .. But let us examine why the IAM may not have pressed for section 6 .. West brothers , West sisters , have you seen many green vests lately ? There sure are a lot of them aren’t there ? Not to say that they are the enemy , but I can say that their stake in our fight is miniscule . Anyone remember the protests that we had in front of HQ last year ? Man it sure was great that we brought out 800 people and made the news every time we protested ! That’s sarcasm for those of you who couldn’t tell . Mike mentioned that we only had 50% turnout in PHX even though the ballot box was AT the airport … I’m not going to bother trying to hide the obvious , it wasn’t because people didn’t think their vote wouldn’t count ( remember how poor we are and how we complain all the time about it ) it was because the OTHER 50 % didn’t care AT ALL …. Aka the scab force … No I hate to say it , but West is too weak to strike on it’s own . Not only that , but if we did strike in section six , the company would still force our East brothers and sisters to come into work and run the flights . There could be scenarios of having stations have half their work force walk out the door and having the other half continue to do their job … Think “FORCED†scabbing because that’s what it would be .

A strike should only be used when absolutely necessary , if for instance we could not achieve our reasonable goals listed above THEN it would be time for a strike .. The most important element of any strike is the SUCCESS of a strike .. Right now we are allied with MX , if we were to strike , they are honor bound to NOT cross the pick line (it’s in their and our contracts because we are BOTH IAM ) .. That’s TWO count them TWO work groups working together to take on this company !!! And some of you folks want to reduce our odds of winning in a potential strike by going it alone !!!! I hate to say it but MX is a powerful ace to hold in our pockets , if they don’t show for work THEY are nowhere near as easily replaced as we are .Some of you are going to say “oh they will cross “ etc etc …. no , I have the feeling they won’t , because how long have they been getting screwed by this company ? How pissed off are they deep down inside ? Not to mention that while we could definitely use them the same can be said of us . After what NW did to it’s MX , I have a feeling that MX everywhere was put on notice , if our MX strikes , I think it would be easier on all their minds knowing they have an ally too .

Do we really need to jump ship NOW when we are so close to getting a contract ? I mean really ?Are some of you hoping mosses is going to bust into corporate ,break heads and come back with a new WONDERFULL TA where your every wish is fulfilled ?Every time you think about the future and future contract negations ask yourself , is what I want “REASONABLE “ will the party on the other side of the table be able to see the merit in my proposal , or will they think I’m smoking crack ? I accepted all the facets of the previous TA because I was desperate , However if I had not been in such a position before and if the three points listed above HAD been in the TA . I think I would have voted yes on it . To those who say “we are NOT close!†I mean it in terms of relativity . Sure we have to wait until the COC is settled , if we lose we can move forwards , if it’s won , well then I think we in the west are screwed . Let’s say it’s lost , that means back to the table , brothers and sisters , would you rather send the same men back to the table TASKED with fleshing out a better contract who KNOW the other men on the other side of the table and how they think and will react , or would you rather send in men who have NO experience dealing with US Airways ? The IAM guys have airline number crunchers who can calculate just how much each addition to the contact is going to cost the company and vice versa . While the IBEW has number crunchers , they aren’t fleet service specific number crunchers so that right there means that it will take them more time and they will be less accurate in coming up with the numbers . I’m willing to bet that however long it would take the IAM returning to the table to get a new TA , it would take the IBEW twice as long because they will have to LEARN how US airways negotiates .

I know , now your going to cry that our leadership and negotiators are wretched and sell outs to the company!! Well remember what I just said , that former TA was NEAR reasonable , except that it lacked the three points I mentioned , also remember that even if it HAD the three points , it might have STILL been voted down by the east in pursuit of a 20 K back pay …. Don’t forget the human element … to those of you who cry the worst case scenario , which says our contract negotiators ARE sell outs , and say our president IS corrupt . Then why aren’t we in that TA right now ?? Please by all means correct me if I’m wrong , but since this is a TA and not open negotiations starting in 2009 , wouldn’t our evil union have been able to simply sign us into it or something even worse until the duration of the east’s current contract ?

The east HAS been lied to , time and time again , EACH and every time your union leaders have said to you “we will get it back !†or “we’re taking these cuts now for the short term so someday we can get it back “ let ME be HONEST with you , you will NOT get it back …. I’m quite sure that each and everyone of you knows in your hearts that the HEAYDAY of the airlines is over, much like the AUTO workers know that things will never be the same again … While airlines are enjoying RECORD profits , that’s only because of the CUTS they took in bankruptcy … If there hadn’t been any bankruptcies there wouldn’t be any record profits ! I said it before , and I’ll say it again , if EVERY union at us airways PUSHED for what they had before , we would once again be BANKRPUT . I’m not a company man , but I DO want to continue my carrier at this airlines with my co workers and friends . We must be fair and realistic not only with our selves but also this company . We’ve been treated quite poorly by us airways , there’s NO denying that , but we should not set our selves up for failure in our dealings with it .
In the end it is not the union leadership or negotiating teams sitting at the table that will get us what we want but the union MEMBERSHIP ….. It will not matter if it’s the IAM or the IBEW when we start to move like a boa and constrict this company , the effect will be the same . Let me simply point out that there is a fork in the road , one leading on a long journey , another the shorter route , it is up to each and everyone of you to decide which way we are going to go , and which path is the longer or shorter of the two .
Yours in solidarity in which ever union is on the property lol



Freedom

P.S , althou I recommend keeping the IAM because I want to get this done before I die of old age .
 
Freedom,

I admire your optimism. Although it takes a union that has BA@#S to get the workers what we desreve. Some itmes that you left out that IMO are resonable requests:

4. NO OUTSOURCING what-so-ever
5. Vacations that we had in our original CBA
6. How abuot an option like the CSA's have for holidays/vacation
7. The pay should be at $21.43, at least that is what the COC is worth, so that or better for pay
8. Shift differentials
9. Unlimited Swaps
10. Keep Profit sharing as it was forced down our throats with this current BK CBA
11. Let the arbitration on the COC run it's course

If all this were to come back in a TA, maybee it would be voted in. Although if we win the COC any award that the I AM MANAGEMENT tries to "negotiate" away for a better CBA will be voted down by the "EASTIES" IMHO. We in the East have paid enough to the Company/I AM MANAGEMENT union. So our concession stand really is CLOSED.
 
By the time the IBEW gets around to negotiating a contract, the credit crunch in this country will wipe out airline profits making a lot of this conversation moot. There are big storm clouds on the financial horizon that might rival what happened after 9/11.
 
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Hey thanks mike , i try and I understand how you feel ...

To answer what you spoke of PJ

as far as number 4 , let me give you a scenario , lets say we had a station where we had only ONE flight coming in and leaving a day . Lets say we had a ramp crew and a crew of ticket counter agents. Do you think it would be cost effective to keep this station ?In situations like this where there’s no work , we need to be flexible with the company , we don’t live in a vacuum , there is COMPETION among the major airlines , if we don’t keep our costs down and remain efficient we will be swallowed up .Which means your stance on keeping EVERY station if followed would result in the majority of the workers losing their jobs . Believe me I’m not interested in selling everyone of our stations for a quick buck , where there is work to do WE should be the ones to do it , and that INCLUDES mesa and or the other express operations that feed Into us .

Sorry but like I said before , the days of your original CBA are over . Look at it this way thou , I agree about the unlimited swaps , if we can do that here in PHX you should be able too as well , and after we’re making a higher hourly wage you’ll be able to configure your schedule to take a week off every month if you want .


As far as that hourly wage you spoke of , I don’t think we will be able to budge the company from 19.00 now that they know we would accept it ,however if this company drags it’s feet in giving us our reasonable demands I think we should make some adjustments to the pay scale to penalize the company for being unreasonable , what I mean is instead of accepting the companies step scale we impose the TWU form of the step scale where on your 7th year your making 7th year pay .

Shift differentials aren’t a priority

, we won’t be able to keep our profit sharing in it’s current form , besides while rat tails talked about future profit sharing I doubt things will be as they are today , the economic climate of our country is changing , we ARE headed toward a recession , in a recession people travel less . Here in Arizona they say one in every three dollars comes from housing construction , or maybe it was just construction in general , all I know is if the housing market continues to fall our state is going to really get pummeled :shock: .


As for your last point which is near and dear to many east people , yes the COC will run it’s course , nothing can stop it now … if you win then it will be an interesting situation , but I don’t think your going to win , so I’m not looking at the future from that perspective .

almost forgot my most imporant point , PJ it's not the "union" that's going to get us what we want , but the WORKERS , we're going to have to go rowdy all up in this B$%^$ !!! Of course thou in being reasonable , that won't occur until after the COC is decided .
 
Freedom,

No offense, but you sound like you have been drinking too much of the Company's/I AM MANAGEMENT's kool-aid. We should keep the profit sharing because it is our current CBA that was basicly the TA we voted down, with minor, and I mean minor, improvements. I disagree with you on the outsourceing. Why don,t you ask those people in those cities that could be how they feel. As far as pay, we are the lowest paid of any legacy carrier, and we are making record profits. I would like to hear your exact reasoning as to why we will not win the COC? It should be a slam dunk for Fleet Service/M&R. So with that our hourly will be over $21 per hour. So $19 per hour is a sellout by the I AM MANAGEMENT. Either way we will see.
 
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no i do NOT drink the Kool-Aid .... :down:

but i am a reasonable man ,as I understand it the IAM was trading in the uncertainty of profit sharing for the certainty of a higher hourly wage , I completely agree with such thinking , I’d rather be safe than sorry , there are what 4 quarters in a year right ? And if even ONE of them isn’t profitable you don’t get it right ? Do you guys really want to play that game ?

PJ while I feel for anyone outsourced , I’m not thinking about how it WAS , I’m looking toward the future , if we ever have to outsource and downsize it won’t be as bad as it was before because next time we won’t have that wretched sixty day rule .I am committed to keeping the majority of our workers in gainful employment but if we must sacrifice a few for the greater good so be it , I know it’s a horrible thing to say , but I’m starting to see that not everything is black or white . Besides PJ most of the guys from the old US Airways are also committed to keeping this company afloat otherwise they wouldn’t have stayed through two BK’s , they want US to succeed as much as anyone .

Hmmm as for us being the bottom of the pile in terms of pay , would that still apply if we were comparing what I see as the NEW TA against the other airlines ? Is there some website where I can compare their pay and ours ?

As far as the COC , remember doctor nick from the simpsons "you got to pinch every penny! " that's our managment team , if they thought they would lose , then they would have settled
 
Freedom,
I will try to find out what the other carriers pay rates are. I guess we would have to agree to disagree. But if it were PHX that were to be outsourced, how would you feel? Would you still have the "sacrifice the few for the needs of the many" mentality. Also what about your thought about losing the COC? Why will we lose?I agree with most of your points. Although I think in that situation what you would add would be to little. Everybody in the East system pre merger, gave up quite alot for the survival of this comopany. All we are asking for is most if not all of it back. I truely believe that is a reasonable request. So why exactly will we lose the COC?
 
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