Keep the IAM

[pjirish317]

Settled on what? Pay rates, vacations, sick days, holidays. What exactly would the company have settled on with the I AM MANAGEMENT in their pocket?

 

[freedom]

Everybody in the East system pre merger, gave up quite alot for the survival of this comopany. All we are asking for is most if not all of it back. I truely believe that is a reasonable request.

let me state what i've said before , and i quote myself lol

"I said it before , and I’ll say it again , if EVERY union at us airways PUSHED for what they had before , we would once again be BANKRPUT ."

To answer your question of what if it were PHX ... oh man you like to hit home lol .... hmm i'm going to assume that it would be NECESSARY to outsource the station in order for the COMPANY to survive . As that us airways has been through 2 bankruptcies I highly doubt they could survive a third or find funding to emerge from it .Such a situation involving a hub is most likely everyone goes down together or some survive , so I’d sign off on getting rid of us lol .. Hey at least that way some people out there could continue to have a job .. No point taking everyone out with us …


Sorry about being slow with you answer on the COC , I edited it the last reply after I realized I had missed it .

But yeah it basically comes down to my belief in this companies all consuming desire to cut costs … they can SMELL the savings lol

 

[pjirish317]

Well Freedom,
I think the company/I AM MANAGEMENT brought this TA out to save them from the COC. Either way the I AM MANAGEMENT likes saving the company money out of our pockets. That is why the COC and profit sharing was part of the TA.

 

[freedom]

well it didn't work , now will see if there's anything to the COC or not , althou i'm in the NOT crowd , but it must be a very tense time for you guys on the east , if you DID win , cha CHING! party time ! lol

 

[pjirish317]

IMO When we win, ole Dougweiser will be scrambeling around wondering what went wrong. Then he will point the finger at Boss Canoli and the guarentee that the TA was a sure thing. And you are right CHA-CHING eventually.....lol

 

[mike33]

This is a Amfa report on how to try and align with other unions to increase strength. They asked and analyzed many other unions on the property. One result was interesting:

Report to the AFA Executive Board

By the

Executive Board Affiliation Committee & International Officers

March 17, 2003

EXERPT:

an option discussed is the potential to strengthen our ability to represent flight attendants by

partnering with another, strong AFL-CIO union. To explore this alternative further, the Executive

Board determined that it should gather as much information as possible on the potential benefits of

an affiliation partnership. Working under the Executive Board’s direction, the Affiliation Committee and International

Officers identified six unions with which to begin partnership discussions.

EXERPT:

The IAM has a reputation within the Labor Movement, and at many of the properties where we both

represent members, of being a strong union, but one that is willing to shun other labor groups and

workers at key moments in bargaining. Many current AFA members at some of our largest carriers

have negative feelings about the IAM as a result of their direct experience on the job and in

bargaining. The Committee and Officers also noted that the IAM’s style of limited communications

with their members during intense struggles is in conflict with AFA’s philosophy. These strongly

held opinions about the IAM must be considered as part of the partnership process.

Feedom/ PHX :

I don't know what more can be said except go to the meetting and get information. This information is FREE. When ur paying for it and not getting it, now thats robbery.

 

[freedom]

One final point to you east siders , someone questioned why PIT and BOS were so pro IAM , could it be they want to get this done ASAP so that we do away with the 60 day rule? Some of you talk about job security , I think it’s time to mention job INSECURITY, remember the 60 day rule is right outside your door waiting for you … the longer it takes to get it removed the longer some of you may be in jeopardy ….


Just so we’re clear that’s called a scare tactic lol , but it’s still a valid point . To those who will rush in and say its the IAM who put it there ,so they did , but it can now be the IAM who removes it QUICKLY and remember that was done in BK , desperate times apparently called for desperate measures .

 

[The Bagfather]

Hey thanks mike , i try and I understand how you feel ...

To answer what you spoke of PJ

as far as number 4 , let me give you a scenario , lets say we had a station where we had only ONE flight coming in and leaving a day . Lets say we had a ramp crew and a crew of ticket counter agents. Do you think it would be cost effective to keep this station ?In situations like this where there’s no work , we need to be flexible with the company , we don’t live in a vacuum , there is COMPETION among the major airlines , if we don’t keep our costs down and remain efficient we will be swallowed up .Which means your stance on keeping EVERY station if followed would result in the majority of the workers losing their jobs . Believe me I’m not interested in selling everyone of our stations for a quick buck , where there is work to do WE should be the ones to do it , and that INCLUDES mesa and or the other express operations that feed Into us .

Sorry but like I said before , the days of your original CBA are over . Look at it this way thou , I agree about the unlimited swaps , if we can do that here in PHX you should be able too as well , and after we’re making a higher hourly wage you’ll be able to configure your schedule to take a week off every month if you want .
As far as that hourly wage you spoke of , I don’t think we will be able to budge the company from 19.00 now that they know we would accept it ,however if this company drags it’s feet in giving us our reasonable demands I think we should make some adjustments to the pay scale to penalize the company for being unreasonable , what I mean is instead of accepting the companies step scale we impose the TWU form of the step scale where on your 7th year your making 7th year pay .

Shift differentials aren’t a priority

, we won’t be able to keep our profit sharing in it’s current form , besides while rat tails talked about future profit sharing I doubt things will be as they are today , the economic climate of our country is changing , we ARE headed toward a recession , in a recession people travel less . Here in Arizona they say one in every three dollars comes from housing construction , or maybe it was just construction in general , all I know is if the housing market continues to fall our state is going to really get pummeled .
As for your last point which is near and dear to many east people , yes the COC will run it’s course , nothing can stop it now … if you win then it will be an interesting situation , but I don’t think your going to win , so I’m not looking at the future from that perspective .

almost forgot my most imporant point , PJ it's not the "union" that's going to get us what we want , but the WORKERS , we're going to have to go rowdy all up in this B$%^$ !!! Of course thou in being reasonable , that won't occur until after the COC is decided .

Freedom: What about the scenario of just ONE flight coming in an no flight leaving?
But seriously folks...Anyway I'm convinced that there was no way to get a TA with
as little a barganing power as the IAM had. Now perhaps as the arbitration results
become actually know OR generally assumed there may be another TA .

The pay scale of the TA was a consession to the west . But any body approaching
17 years in the west probably voted against it . Especially in the field stations
with a geo diff of up to 20%. But the junior guys and middle guys in PHX
and else where would have won.

But again why would the company go for anything more than what they did?
Now here is the 24 thousand dollar question. Why did the IAM negotiating
team set the bar so low? If they spent 15 months negotating and thats all
they could come up with then why did the recommend voting for it? Is
this some secret strategy which only buffenburger himself understands?

I don't know the details of why they have done nothing about our TWU
contract. But I disagree on one fundamental point. That is the value
of a strike threat of strike or work slowdown. Practically speaking PHX's
Participation would be all that's needed to shut things down. So the company
is going fly in new hires from PHL? OK it's a very complicated procedure
and governed by the RLA. But the law is there to protect BOTH commerce
and the employee. And then there is the NMB. Even if you accept 700's
caracturization of the NMB you have to say we would have gotten
of say, just to throw out a figure, $2.00/hr across the board raise starting at
9.00/hr

But I just don't think , well I know the IAM wasn't willing to put the resources
into this. And to be honest I'm not sure any other union would have done it
either. Let people who know way more than me discuss that .

I think your contract amendments are right on. Especially if I got you
right that RJ s should be in the count. But what I would add makes
it obviously impossible and that is set the duration until the end of the
current east contract (two years) and leave the status of the COC
up to the courts. So what I would be willing to give up is any back pay
for the west.

So it becomes silly to talk about it at a certain point and certainly the
IAM is not adding to the discusion or at least not publicly. So the
question remains whether or not to stay with the IAM or not. I
am for the change myself maybe it's gotten personal for me but
I look at the pros and cons and I've got to go with the IBEW

Thanks BF

 

[pjirish317]

Fear and intimidation, that's all the Company/I AM MANAGEMENT has. But the I AM MANAGEMET could get that 60 day rule pulled without having to sell off other benefits/pay/scope/job security/sick time/vacation time/ect. ect. ect.

 

[freedom]

Feedom/ PHX :

I don't know what more can be said except go to the meetting and get information. This information is FREE. When ur paying for it and not getting it, now thats robbery.

well mikes right it can't hurt to go and ASK questions , i might go myself , but if i shouldn't be there , can someone ask them how LONG it will take them to get us a contract , and don't settle for i don't know , ask them to estimate and be FORCEFULL about it ...


in all likelihood the IBEW is probably the better union , but at this point I don’t care about who has the better leaders or who’s more open and communicative , I can smell TA blood and I want to get this DONE , that is MY reasoning , I don’t want to sit here till 2009 and that would be December of 2009 would it not ?

After the {EDIT} CHANGE OF CONTROL goes down it will be time for us to start to PUSH this company around , if it requires force to bring them back to the table then we shall provide it , we get our three main issues settled and then everyone can go merrily on there way , and then perhaps we can get another union if we still desire it .

 

[wings396]

One final point to you east siders , someone questioned why PIT and BOS were so pro IAM , could it be they want to get this done ASAP so that we do away with the 60 day rule? Some of you talk about job security , I think it’s time to mention job INSECURITY, remember the 60 day rule is right outside your door waiting for you … the longer it takes to get it removed the longer some of you may be in jeopardy ….
Just so we’re clear that’s called a scare tactic lol , but it’s still a valid point . To those who will rush in and say its the IAM who put it there ,so they did , but it can now be the IAM who removes it QUICKLY and remember that was done in BK , desperate times apparently called for desperate measures .

Freedom, since you are a "pro-IAM" person, please tell me why on the last proposed T/A did the elimation of the 60 day rule not apply to
everyone?? Is it not bad enough that most, if not all currently effected by it were furloughed due to outsourcing? It was pathetic that the IAM ever permitted this 60 day rule to get into the contract to being with. I seriously doubt that it was the companies idea given that Fleet was the only group that had it thrust upon them. If the IAM is worth anything at all, they should demand that this piece of crap clause be eliminated for everyone who is/was a dues paying member of theirs PERIOD, no exceptions.

 

[mike33]

A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.

Sir Winston Churchill



The truth is more important than the facts.

Frank Lloyd Wright

 

[freedom]

Freedom, since you are a "pro-IAM" person, please tell me why on the last proposed T/A did the elimation of the 60 day rule not apply to
everyone?? Is it not bad enough that most, if not all currently effected by it were furloughed due to outsourcing? It was pathetic that the IAM ever permitted this 60 day rule to get into the contract to being with. I seriously doubt that it was the companies idea given that Fleet was the only group that had it thrust upon them. If the IAM is worth anything at all, they should demand that this piece of crap clause be eliminated for everyone who is/was a dues paying member of theirs PERIOD, no exceptions.

well i wasn't there when it happened to so i can't say with certainty how or why it happened , but i can make a guess . I'm assuming in BK that every labor group had to make a percentage of cuts aka savings for the company , perhaps the IAM decided that the guys who are most junior are the ones who would provide the cost savings , also maybe they felt that by getting rid of a few field stations they could save the majority of the membership . That’s just a guess , I assume that must have tried to justify it at the time ,what did they tell you about their reasons for doing it ?


Don’t mistake me for being a IAM cheerleader , I’m for getting this DONE , I want this finished , I want a TA , I want a decent standard of living ! As I see it , there’s only ONE way to do it before the end of 2010 , and that’s the way that I’ve suggested above .


I completely agree , we need to do away with the 60 day rule ASAP ..As to why it didn't extend to everyone on the last TA i don't get you , i thought it covered everyone ?

Another point ,brothers and sisters , it appears as if are heading toward a recession , I don’t think we are there yet , but it seems to be going that way .It’s going to be harder to bargain in a recession , of course thou I know very little about the economy and where it’s going , I’ve been crying the great depression is right around the next corner since I was 5 lol

 

[pjirish317]

Freedom,
I agree that we need to get this done. But to what cost. The T/A is the CBA from BK. No snap-backs for 5 years. Please. We are not in Bk so we should not have a BK CBA. That is the I AM MANAGEMENT selling us out!

 

[freedom]

no PJ , that's the new wonderful world of AVIATION .... where EVERYONE makes less than they did before ! horray for the future , aint it grand ? How much do plane tickets cost nowadays ? alot less than they used to am i right ?people will NO LONGER pay an arm and a leg to fly somewhere . Lets examine our favorite rival SOUTHWEST , now they make more than us across the board , BUT to be honest , they also work ALOT harder than i'd like too ... that's why i'm fine making less than they do , i would prefer not to turn flight after flight with only one other guy .

The IAM aimed somewhat lower than they should have on that TA , but it wasn't a sell out ... i'll say it again , you will not get what you once had , your not going to like it , but that's how it is , and you can rant and rave all you like, but it won't change the facts , and time WILL prove me right ...


all of you need to keep in mind the BIGGER picture , which is the competitive market around us , we can't focus SOLEY on our issues to the exclusion of all others … We must ask ourselves , looking at the big picture of today’s market and trying to use that information available to us to look down the road 5 or 10 years from now , what can we expect to get out of negotiations with this company today ?