M&R Vote

[Bob Owens]

The Local Presidents' should have no problem getting the official BallPoint results.

Official, unofficial, it doesnt really matter because as far as I know there is no mechanism to challenge ratification votes anyway, they are not the same as Local elections.

I haven't seen anything to indicate that any votes were voided, all I recieved was an editable unsigned form from what appears to be Ballottpoint and a breakdown of my locals vote. We voted 96% NO in M&R.

 

[AC Tynker]

All of those "smug high seniority" AMT's as you call them, have watched for years of TWU concessions lead us to nowhere.
They have watch the TWU lie and be never held unaccountable for those lies.
The 2003 contract along with management bonuses was just the last straw, but not close to beginning of the problem.

Every negotiations since deregulation has always resulted in some concession traded for every gain made, thus years of negative result on life style and buying power.

Those with low seniority have no idea about the history of this union, and apparently either do not care, or want to bury their head in the sand. So if you don't want to do something about the problem, then you are the problem and become expendable. The skill level of the employees hired has deteriorated right along with the pay, so we have a large number of "lucky to have a job brother" workers who will never stand and fight. Funny, these are the ones signing the Teamsters cards wanting a "stronger" union, as if changing to another weak and rather large union will stand and fight for them, while they hide under the bed in fright.

You just watch, as AMFA takes over administration of this contract, head count will be reduced at Tulsa to a staggering level that will most likely eliminate you unless another "buyout" is offered as round two and three emerge. And everyone will sit back and once again blame AMFA for something the incumbent union is responsible for.

Don't believe me? Just save this post and we will visit again in 36 months. You will not be here when the wage average article of this contract comes due. And neither will thousands of others.

I wouldn't try to argue the outcome because of how unpredictable everything has been, kind of hard to get a good read on it all in my opinion. I know I have heard that some of the shop managers are telling the product reps to bid 3 year contracts for third party. I guess we shall see what happens, hopefully you are wrong.

 

[Buck]

I'm sure Ballot Pointe is a legit company that would not rig any vote for the sake of losing the business, but thier should be moral responsibilities if the twu twisted the numbers. Why can't the membership see the results through Ballot Pointe?????????? And why were over 100 votes,( that were electronic), thrown out?????WTF Batman!!!!

When the mechanics had their first vote, I called Ballot Point to attempt to get the full results. I was told that The TWU in Hurst, TX handle this issue. I called them and they said this was not available. After the last vote, I posted on the TWU Local 514 Blog and they have yet to answer.

Just a side note, Ballot Point seems to be affiliated with the AFL-CIO?

 

[comatose]

When the mechanics had their first vote, I called Ballot Point to attempt to get the full results. I was told that The TWU in Hurst, TX handle this issue. I called them and they said this was not available. After the last vote, I posted on the TWU Local 514 Blog and they have yet to answer.

Just a side note, Ballot Point seems to be affiliated with the AFL-CIO?

The TWU has the ability to put this issue to bed by identifying how each local voted and the reasoning(if there was one)
for the ineligible ballots that were deemed to be voided.
Their silence speaks volumes. Their ethics rivals the companies.
Or maybe the idiots are working on the finishing final language screwing.

 

[Bob Owens]

I'm not overly concerned about the ballott for the reason I already stated but I would like to see the station breakdowns.

Its been brought up here that Jim Little (or any other Union President) could sign a deal without ratification, that we could vote against it and he could say "Yes, we accept". I've countered that I didnt think that would ever happen, however there has been precedence that he has refused to sign a ratified deal as new information became available.

We should keep in mind that its still up to the International to accept the deal or not. It works both ways. They could, citing the Judges ruling with the pilots that AA went too far, approach the company, as they did in 2003 and address those issues without the negotiating committee where its clear the company went to far, PTO, work rules and System Protection for example.They could even slip in more for the line now that its clear Tulsa was ok with whats on the table now-what could Tulsa say, now they want it too? Remember that in 2003 the International said they werent going to sign the ratified deal and got a few useless things added, thus changing the deal without a ratifiaction of those changes. Now things are a little different, the TWU is facing both an IBT raid and an AMFA raid. Making such a move to mitigate the damages would be a wise move for both the company, which despite their talk doesnt seem to be in too much of a rush to implement changes, after all they know that the line voted 75% against the deal, and the Union, as improvements could diffuse the drives to change representation and lessen the likelyhood of spontaneous job actions and job abandonment across the line. Does the company really want to face an extremenly unhappy line maintenence crew and possibly a new union with something to prove? It would be a win-win for both.

We will see.

Just think of how Overspeed would be bragging about how he(er Don) was able to seal a deal that the Vote No guys couldnt.Have to admitt its a good strategy if thats whats in store. Lets say the conspiracy guys are right and the vote did fail, so they say it passed, we have no legal means to challenge it anyway, then come in an address a few of the issues that drove the NO votes and look like a hero.

 

[737823]

What will happen to Jimmy and Don V when TWU gets decertified and AMFA is brought on the property?

Josh

 

[Hopeful]

What will happen to Jimmy and Don V when TWU gets decertified and AMFA is brought on the property?

Josh

Nothing. Little is international president. Don V will always have a place as long as Little is in that position.

 

[comatose]

Nothing. Little is international president. Don V will always have a place as long as Little is in that position.

Jimmy status would not prob change but as long as the company has no ethical compass the

unethical one would fit nicely. Both deserve each other. Get nothing, give nothing.

 

[Overspeed]

I'm not overly concerned about the ballott for the reason I already stated but I would like to see the station breakdowns.

Its been brought up here that Jim Little (or any other Union President) could sign a deal without ratification, that we could vote against it and he could say "Yes, we accept". I've countered that I didnt think that would ever happen, however there has been precedence that he has refused to sign a ratified deal as new information became available.

We should keep in mind that its still up to the International to accept the deal or not. It works both ways. They could, citing the Judges ruling with the pilots that AA went too far, approach the company, as they did in 2003 and address those issues without the negotiating committee where its clear the company went to far, PTO, work rules and System Protection for example.They could even slip in more for the line now that its clear Tulsa was ok with whats on the table now-what could Tulsa say, now they want it too? Remember that in 2003 the International said they werent going to sign the ratified deal and got a few useless things added, thus changing the deal without a ratifiaction of those changes. Now things are a little different, the TWU is facing both an IBT raid and an AMFA raid. Making such a move to mitigate the damages would be a wise move for both the company, which despite their talk doesnt seem to be in too much of a rush to implement changes, after all they know that the line voted 75% against the deal, and the Union, as improvements could diffuse the drives to change representation and lessen the likelyhood of spontaneous job actions and job abandonment across the line. Does the company really want to face an extremenly unhappy line maintenence crew and possibly a new union with something to prove? It would be a win-win for both.

We will see.

Just think of how Overspeed would be bragging about how he(er Don) was able to seal a deal that the Vote No guys couldnt.Have to admitt its a good strategy if thats whats in store. Lets say the conspiracy guys are right and the vote did fail, so they say it passed, we have no legal means to challenge it anyway, then come in an address a few of the issues that drove the NO votes and look like a hero.

Bob all but one group at AA has accepted their deals. The APA are weeks away from abrogation and read the decision. They won nothing but a few weeks. The creditors have stated they will go against any sweetening of deals. There is nothing more to get. Deal with it.

And it's not just AA that doesn't believe in your arguments. Don't you remember trying to rally the CO and UA AMTs? They listened and voted the opposite of your recommendations.

And you keep putting out there about the cornerstone locals. Who cares? They are members just like the ones everywhere else and their votes are not more important than a guy in SAT.

The deal passed Bob, threatening that unhappy AMTs make bad workers is a weak strategy. Weren't post Lorenzo AMTs unhappy at CO? Now you want to be like them but you fail to see you already are. They got kicked in the groin twice by BK before they got to be where you desire to be now. So we are in BK1, prepare for the next rochambeau

 

[Chuck Schalk]

Bob all but one group at AA has accepted their deals. The APA are weeks away from abrogation and read the decision. They won nothing but a few weeks. The creditors have stated they will go against any sweetening of deals. There is nothing more to get. Deal with it.

And it's not just AA that doesn't believe in your arguments. Don't you remember trying to rally the CO and UA AMTs? They listened and voted the opposite of your recommendations.

And you keep putting out there about the cornerstone locals. Who cares? They are members just like the ones everywhere else and their votes are not more important than a guy in SAT.

The deal passed Bob, threatening that unhappy AMTs make bad workers is a weak strategy. Weren't post Lorenzo AMTs unhappy at CO? Now you want to be like them but you fail to see you already are. They got kicked in the groin twice by BK before they got to be where you desire to be now. So we are in BK1, prepare for the next rochambeau

Overspeed

along your line of thinking then we can agree:

The TWU ATD division is the "leading industry concessionary bargainig unit"

get over it and move on.......right?

 

[Hopeful]

Time to move on. It is what it is. We cannot change the vote and cannot change what the contract will allow to happen. We can debate and, for a better word, argue, until we are blue in the face about this vote. It's done. The flight attendants voted.....their deal is ratified. The pilots most likely will be abrogated barring a willingness to use the next couple of weeks to mutually agree on something.
If they don't, and abrogation happens, the company will implement the changes they want.
Yes, they will continue to negotiate but for how long? Another few years?
I tend to believe a seasoned bankruptcy attorney like Sharon Levine who stated that consenual agreements are not needed to exit bk and that union workers can be left exposed upon bk exit.
We cannot pick and choose what we want to beleive by legal counsel.

Any proven job action will be met with court ordered injunctions and union fines so fast, many won't know what hit them.
As for bad morale and unhappy employees showing their feeling at work, don't count on it. Following the 2003 concessions and the NINE years that ensued, unhappy and poor morale laden employees have not prevailed.

This too wears off quickly.

All we can do is seek to change representation and start from there.

Look around in both the private and public sector.....The union worker is becoming a dinosaur with regards to his/her once envied pay and benefits.

We voted,,,,,the ourcome is what it is.

 

[Realityck]

All of those "smug high seniority" AMT's as you call them, have watched for years of TWU concessions lead us to nowhere.


Have you been taking a nap for the last 30 years?

Major Carrier Bankruptcies During Following Deregulation

• May 13, 1982 – Braniff
• Sep 24, 1983 – Continental
• Mar 9, 1989 - Eastern
• Sep 28, 1989 – Braniff
• Dec. 3, 1990 – Continental
• Jan. 8 1991 — Pan Am World Airways
• Jan. 18, 1991 — Eastern Air Lines
• June 27, 1991 — America West Airlines
• Jan. 31, 1992 — Trans World Airlines
• June 30, 1995 — Trans World Airlines
• Feb. 26, 1998 — Pan American World Airways
• Dec. 6, 2000 — National Airlines
• Jan. 10, 2001 — Trans World Airlines
• Aug. 11, 2002 — US Airways
• Dec. 9, 2002 — United Airlines
• Sept. 12, 2004 — US Airways
• Sept. 14, 2005 — Delta Air Lines
• Sept. 14, 2005 — Northwest Airlines
• Nov. 29, 2011 — American Airlines

For those who remember, Deregulation caused a major upheaval in the Airline Industry and we are still dealing with its fallout. While the TWU dodged the silver bullet until now, it’s our turn to face the effects of a Bankruptcy Court’s indifference to Airlines employees and our union contracts. It’s a no-win situation no matter how many “experts” claim to know an easy way out, and no union has succeeded in avoiding the fallout. Anyone that tells you different is either lying, or has a personal agenda.

SWA was never in this position but neither have they ever had a losing quarter (and hopefully they never will).

What exactly don’t you understand about the real world, not AMFA’s version?

 

[FWAAA]

SWA was never in this position but neither have they ever had a losing quarter (and hopefully they never will).

Wrong. WN has had at least one losing quarter in the past couple of years. It's been a long time since WN had a net loss for a full year.

 

[Bob Owens]

All of those "smug high seniority" AMT's as you call them, have watched for years of TWU concessions lead us to nowhere.


Have you been taking a nap for the last 30 years?

Major Carrier Bankruptcies During Following Deregulation

• May 13, 1982 – Braniff
• Sep 24, 1983 – Continental
• Mar 9, 1989 - Eastern
• Sep 28, 1989 – Braniff
• Dec. 3, 1990 – Continental
• Jan. 8 1991 — Pan Am World Airways
• Jan. 18, 1991 — Eastern Air Lines
• June 27, 1991 — America West Airlines
• Jan. 31, 1992 — Trans World Airlines
• June 30, 1995 — Trans World Airlines
• Feb. 26, 1998 — Pan American World Airways
• Dec. 6, 2000 — National Airlines
• Jan. 10, 2001 — Trans World Airlines
• Aug. 11, 2002 — US Airways
• Dec. 9, 2002 — United Airlines
• Sept. 12, 2004 — US Airways
• Sept. 14, 2005 — Delta Air Lines
• Sept. 14, 2005 — Northwest Airlines
• Nov. 29, 2011 — American Airlines

For those who remember, Deregulation caused a major upheaval in the Airline Industry and we are still dealing with its fallout. While the TWU dodged the silver bullet until now, it’s our turn to face the effects of a Bankruptcy Court’s indifference to Airlines employees and our union contracts. It’s a no-win situation no matter how many “experts” claim to know an easy way out, and no union has succeeded in avoiding the fallout. Anyone that tells you different is either lying, or has a personal agenda.

SWA was never in this position but neither have they ever had a losing quarter (and hopefully they never will).

What exactly don’t you understand about the real world, not AMFA’s version?

You seem to forget that we gave up more outside of BK and went into this BK worse off than our peers who went BK.

Are you saying that airlines didnt fail prior to deregulation?

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob all but one group at AA has accepted their deals. The APA are weeks away from abrogation and read the decision. They won nothing but a few weeks. The creditors have stated they will go against any sweetening of deals. There is nothing more to get. Deal with it.

And it's not just AA that doesn't believe in your arguments. Don't you remember trying to rally the CO and UA AMTs? They listened and voted the opposite of your recommendations.

And you keep putting out there about the cornerstone locals. Who cares? They are members just like the ones everywhere else and their votes are not more important than a guy in SAT.

The deal passed Bob, threatening that unhappy AMTs make bad workers is a weak strategy. Weren't post Lorenzo AMTs unhappy at CO? Now you want to be like them but you fail to see you already are. They got kicked in the groin twice by BK before they got to be where you desire to be now. So we are in BK1, prepare for the next rochambeau

75% of our guys rejected this deal, you wont see them jumping through hoops to help this company anymore.

In fact they were headed for a third one when Bethune took over and restored many of the benefits that were lost and increased wages. When you compare their real wages to what we are making today their Lorenzo wages were higher than our current wages.

We've been through BK twice, once when the company said they would file so we gave them more than they probably would have gotten and the second time to once again lower the standard for the industry.

The Judge said they overreached, well we had a much better case than the pilots but we will never hear it. Thanks to people like you.